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have to be hauled out of there and brought back after the next appropriation. It that not pretty costly?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir, it possibly will add, to some extent, to the cost of the work, though the equipment required for cofferdam construction is not by any means exactly the same or entirely the same equipment that would be required for starting the excavation for the powerhouse and the section of the spillway that falls within the first cofferdam.

Mr. MAGNUSON. I suppose you have not let contracts yet for the excavation for the powerhouse, and so forth?

General FOOTE. No, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. You do not know if it will be the same contractor?

General FOOTE. No, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. On this navigation question, the Lewiston Valley produces lots of grain; does it not?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. I believe you are going to supply for the record some estimate of the future tonnage, if we ever get navigation all the way down the river from Lewiston?

General FOOTE. We can give you here the estimated future tonnage annually, 2,547,000.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Tons?

General FOOTE. Tons; yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Will all four of these dams be required for any navigation to Lewiston?

General FOOTE. No, sir. The four dams will be required before you fully develop the system, of course.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Even Ice Harbor will allow

General FOOTE. Ice Harbor by itself will flood out one of the worst rapids in the reach of the Snake River between Pasco and Lewiston, so that there will be an advantage that will permit seasonal navigation as a result of Ice Harbor construction alone.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Perhaps shallower draft navigation than will be possible with the whole complex of dams?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOLAND. If Ice Harbor were constructed, you could have navigation on the Snake River? Is there any navigation on the Snake River now?

General FOOTE. No, sir, for practical purposes there is none.

Mr. BOLAND. When you say for practical purposes, for any purpose. Let's be more definitive on "practical." For practical purposes. what kind of navigation is now on the Snake River?

General FOOTE. There is an occasional trip during the high water season made by one of the towing companies.

Mr. BOLAND. A barge?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOLAND. So that if Ice Harbor were built this would increase the navigation potential to some extent?

General FOOTE. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BOLAND. Can you tell us to what particular extent it would increase it?

General FOOTE. In terms of average annual benefits, sir, if I can phrase it that way, we would get about one-sixth of the navigation

benefit from the construction of Ice Harbor alone that we would get from the development of the full system.

Mr. BOLAND. Could you give the mileage from Lewiston to the Columbia River?

General FOOTE. I will give it to you approximately, sir. It is about 120 miles from Lewiston to Ice Harbor.

Mr. BOLAND. Is there any prospect for navigation east of Lewiston on the Snake?

General FOOTE. The section of the Snake River immediately upstream from Lewiston for a distance of about 30 miles may eventually be developed for navigation because there is a very substantial deposit of limestone up there which is required and used throughout agricultural regions extensively for fertilizer, agricultural lime.

Mr. BOLAND. I have no more questions except that I would like to say this: I do not believe that just because you have particular bulk products we ought to necessarily use water transportation. There are plenty of areas in this country where bulk materials are found that are carried by land transportation. It seems every single time we consider water transportation the argument is advanced for the use of water transportation for bulk materials. The argument is advanced that you can move great tonnages of material in bulk on these waterways, which, it is argued, consequently reflects a cheaper cost to the producer.

However, in my judgment that does not follow at all.

That is all.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Is it not true that railroad freight rates in this part of the country are the highest in the Nation? This is not exactly your field.

Mr. BOLAND. If they are higher than New England, let me know.
Mr. MAGNUSON. They are much higher.

Mr. BOLAND. I do not think so.

Mr. MURRAY. We have very reasonable rates in the Middle West.
Mr. MAGNUSON. You are lucky.

Mr. JENSEN. We are building and have already built some dams on the upper reaches of the Snake River. I wonder if you would point out and tell us where those particular dams are. Maybe Mr. Dexheimer would do that?

General FOOTE. The Bureau of Reclamation developed many more than the Corps of Engineers.

Mr. DEXHEIMER. The Snake covers all of this territory clear down to its confluence with the Columbia at this point. And these dams that you see labeled in red are the ones we have built, all the way through; the Palisades Dam is under construction at the present time. The rest of these up here are built now.

Mr. JENSEN. Most of them are power dams, multipurpose dams?
Mr. DEXHEIMER. They are essentially for irrigation.

Mr. JENSEN. But there is power involved?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. Those that have power potential have power in them.

Mr. JENSEN. Go ahead, Mr. Dexheimer. You have some more dams there. How many dams, altogether, are built on the Snake; either under construction or completed on the Snake River?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. Including the tributaries of the Snake, I would have to count them up, but there are 20 down to this point and these

potential dams just talked about, 4 down to and including Ice Harbor. Mr. JENSEN. The reason I bring that out is this: All those dams on the Snake River are keeping water from that point where you figure on building the proposed Ice Harbor Dam, and the other three; is that right?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. Yes, sir; they keep water. Some of them are almost all irrigation, but there are some for flood control also.

Mr. JENSEN. Now, I am wondering how much water we are going to have up there that will be available for navigation purposes and even for hydroelectric power. It appears to me that we are attempting to do something with water that we have not sufficient water to do with.

Maybe I am mistaken on that, maybe there will be more water available in that area where you are proposing four dams than I think will be available.

What is the story on that?

General FOOTE. The operation, Mr. Jensen, of those irrigation reservoirs serves to regulate streamflow and with the return from your irrigation diversion you actually get a beneficial effect on your flow at the time it is critically low during winter months. That is, you get an increase in your low-water flow. So that, as far as navigation and power development downstream are concerned at this stage of the game, I am confident that the effect of those reservoirs is a beneficial rather than an adverse effect. Also, as far as the lower Snake River

Mr. JENSEN. A lot of water is taken from those reservoirs for irrigation purposes?

General FOOTE. But two-thirds of the water, sir, in the lower Snake River does not come from the upper Snake. It comes from the Salmon and from the Clearwater.

Mr. JENSEN. It does?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENSEN. That is what I am trying to find out. You can understand my reason for asking the question since so much water is retained in the upper reaches of the Snake River by all of those dams which Mr. Dexheimer pointed out, a layman could easily come to the conclusion that there would be very little water left to make power and navigation in the lower reaches where you propose these four dams.

How many acre-feet of water will flow through the Ice Harbor Dam, if and when constructed?

Mr. DEXHEIMER. While he is looking for that I would like to point out that our studies on the Snake

Mr. RABAUT. It appears to me we are not going to be able to complete this discussion this morning.

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RABAUT. We will adjourn at this time until 2 o'clock.

Any further questions on Ice Harbor lock and dam?

Mr. MAGNUSON. I have some more questions, Mr. Chairman.

Just before the noon recess, General Foote, Mr. Jensen was raising a question of whether there would be water enough in the Snake for the Ice Harbor operation, partly on account of water which is retained upstream in some of these Bureau of Reclamation projects.

Is it not true that there is substantial underground flow into the Snake River below the Bureau's upstream project?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir; a very substantial return flow. I can give you, Mr. Magnuson, the total flows available at Ice Harbor at the mouth of the Snake River, which I believe will fully answer that question.

Mr. MAGNUSON. As a matter of fact, do not the studies of the Army engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation show not only that the Snake will provide sufficient water for Ice Harbor but also Little Goose, Lower Monumental, Lower Granite, and even Hells Canyon, with its 4 million acre-feet of storage?

General FOOTE. That is correct. Hells Canyon storage possibly would not be filled every year, but there is adequate water for the full operation of the project. Total average annual flow at the mouth of the Snake River is 34.9 million acre-feet. The present depletion for irrigation and other consumptive use is estimated to reduce that to 30.9 million acre-feet, and future depletions for consumptive use are estimated to reduce the total average annual flow to 26.8 million acrefeet annually, so there would be a very adequate supply of water on the lower reaches of the Snake River.

Mr. MAGNUSON. I wanted to take up briefly the criticism we heard of the navigation feature not only of Ice Harbor but the projected dams farther up the Snake.

The Federal Government has taken responsibility for navigable streams ever since its inception; has it not?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. We have been improving rivers and harbors for navigation purposes for 150 years.

General FooTE. That is correct.

Mr. MAGNUSON. This is a fixed policy of the United States Government historically. Is that correct?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. We have provision for navigation in the Columbia dams below the confluence of the Columbia with the Snake, have we not, in all of those dams?

General FOOTE. Yes.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Bonneville, The Dalles, and the McNary?
General FOOTE. And John Day, which is in the planning stage.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Would it not be pretty shortsighted to have navigation up to Pasco and not extend it up the Snake?

General FOOTE. If the navigation development of the Snake River were not carried out, the Columbia River system, that is the lower river below the mouth of the Snake, would not be fully utilized as we have contemplated that it would be with a completely developed navigation system on the Columbia River and tributaries. That is, we would fall somewhat short of the presently planned navigation development in that basin.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Without navigation on the Snake would your navigation features on the lower Columbia be justified? General FOOTE. I believe they would; yes, sir.

Mr MAGNUSON. But not as well justified?

General FoOTE. Not as well justified.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Is it not a fact, General, that 65 percent of the potential river traffic for the Columbia would come into the river, that is, the Snake River, above Ice Harbor?

General FoOTE. Speaking of the entire lower river system now, Columbia River system, sir, or just the Snake River?

Mr. MAGNUSON. What I mean is this: Is it not a fact that 65 percent of the potential river traffic will be untapped unless we have navigation above Pasco; in other words, above Ice Harbor?

General FOOTE. I am unable to confirm that figure offhand, as to just what the percentages are.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Have not the Army engineers estimated that the overall total tonnage for this system will be between 6 and 7 million tons a year?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir; that is about the present estimate.

Mr. MAGNUSON. The main part of the wheat country of Washington, Idaho, and even part of Oregon, at least of Washington and Idaho, would be served by the Snake if we get navigation up the Snake. Is that not correct?

General FOOTE. That is where the great volume of the wheat comes from.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Including Whitman County, of which the county seat is Pullman, which you can see on the map near the Lower Granite dam site, Whitman County, which produces between twelve and fifteen million bushels of wheat a year and is the greatest wheat-producing county in the United States.

General ITSCHER. One-sixth of all the wheat grown in the United States is grown in this inland empire area.

Mr. MAGNUSON. And the Ice Harbor pool would extend upstream 45 miles; is it, General?

General FOOTE. Approximately 40 miles.

Mr. MAGNUSON. It would extend into the wheat country and it would become economical to use the Snake River, the Ice Harbor pool, for shipping the wheat downstream. Is that right?

General FOOTE. There would unquestionably be grain terminal development on the Ice Harbor pool.

Mr. MAGNUSON. And these folks have experienced a rail rate increase of 82 percent since 1933. Are you aware of that, General?

General FOOTE. I am not familiar with the total increase in those rail rates.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Whereas at The Dalles, where they have slack water navigation, they have experienced a decrease in rates since 1933. In addition to tapping this great eastern Washington Wheat Belt, Ice Harbor alone would provide navigation 4 to 6 months a year up to Lewiston. Is that correct?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Where there also is a great grain and timber country.

General FOOTE. That is correct, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. The power features of these dams according to your plan will be paid off, that is the power costs will be paid off, in 50 years. Is that correct?

General FOOTE. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAGNUSON. Including 212 percent interest?

General FOOTE. Two and a half percent interest.

Mr. MAGNUSON. These dams will not become useless in 50 years, will they?

General FOOTE. No, sir.

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