Senator GILLETTE. Well, I think, Senator Mead, if I may be permitted just to speak briefly on your point, that your point is logical. It should not be restrictive to the point of hampering education and the dissemination of news. I am inclined to the opinion that some of the lack of interest in campaigns is due, however, to the fact that John Q. Citizen in many instances reaches the point where he says to himself: "Oh, this whole thing is corrupt; what is the use of my going out and voting; my vote isn't going to be counted, and isn't going to have equal weight, so I am going on out and husk corn and pay no attention to it."

That may be a factor that entered into the reduced voting.

On the other hand, if this limitation of the over-all amount is not sufficient to permit the conducting of a campaign with full use of all the educational facilities for the dissemination of viewpoints on the issues, increase the amount. I was just following the $3,000,000 limitation of the Hatch Act, and dividing it up.

I see no reason also why a candidate couldn't designate the C. I. O. political action committee as his fiscal agent, or it could be so drafted as to permit him to select a certain fiscal agent through which its designated agents could make these expendituers, and they could work through the political action committee.

Senator HATCH. Senator Gillette, in line with what Senator Mead has just been saying about the failure of citizens to vote, might it not be possible that the fewer who actually vote, the more effective may become the use of money?

Senator GILLETTE. It would take less money to influence the smaller number of voters.

Senator HATCH. There is another point, Senator Mead, that you made about poll taxes. Are you suggesting that perhaps the poll tax ought to be put in reverse, and that we have a tax on those who do not vote rather than on those who do vote?

Senator MEAD. In Australia they found that that worked very effectively, and they had 99-plus percentage of their people participating in the recent elections because those that did not participate had to pay a poll tax for failure to assume the responsibilities of citizenship.

Now you mentioned awhile ago that some people refrain from voting because they are afraid that this corrupt method is overwhelming and that there is no use in voting. But can't you see that in a specific county where 10 percent, a select group-and usually the 10 percent that I refer to has plenty of money, money enough to pay their property taxes, meet the poll-tax requirements, and so forth-where they vote and the 90 percent are denied a right to vote, that the 90 percent are overwhelmed with the idea that it is no use anyway, not because we are spending a lot of money for campaigning but because of the fact that it costs them too much money to participate in the campaign.

So the fundamental issue, as I see it, is to get the folks out to vote, and that is what the C. I. O. political action group is, in my judgment, bent on doing. They are cognizant of the terrific situation that this country is up against, and they are trying to arouse interest.

On the other hand, if the C. I. O., as a union, separate and distinct from the political-action group, decide that they are going to endorse President Roosevelt, or Guy Gillette, that has no effect upon the

funds that the C. I. O. political action group may spend in arousing interest in the vote.

Senator GILLETTE. Not a bit.

Senator MEAD. So the union still has a right as a union, independent of the political action group, to favor certain candidates.

Senator GILLETTE. Certainly; and ought not be interfered with. Senator BUTLER. I want to say here that I think that the example, as set by the political action committee, is one that commends itself and should, to every good citizen in America.

The only thing that I see in it-it may not be a fact but it apparently is according to the reports-is that they are permitted to receive en bloc, or en masse, a big contribution from a well-filled treasury, a privilege which is denied individuals or other organizations that are interested in the elections of America just the same as the members of the C. I. O. and the Political Action Committee.

Senator MEAD. I believe other groups could set up an organization like that.

Senator BUTLER. That is the only part of the program that I think is entirely wrong.

Senator HATCH. Is there anything further, Senator Gillette? Senator GILLETTE. I think that is all; and again I thank you. Senator HATCH. We are always glad to get your views, Senator Gillette.

Senator GILLETTE. Thank you.

Senator HATCH. If that is all, the committee will recess, subject to call.

(Whereupon, at 11:40 a. m., the committee recessed, subject to call.)