Now, we have, not an unexpected surprise, but a nice surprise in Senator Moynihan, who is with us here. I am delighted to have him come. Do you want to sit up here?

Senator MOYNIHAN. No, Mr. Chairman. I will be happy to sit down here.

Senator PELL. I am sure the Senator from New York would like to introduce the Senator from New York.

Senator JAVITS. He has introduced himself pretty well, not only to us but to the world. [Laughter.]

Senator PELL. Senator Moynihan?

STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Senator MOYNIHAN. Mr. Chairman, Senator Stafford, Senator Javits, may I have the pleasure of introducing my colleague Dr. Chester E. Finn, Jr., who is an associate of mine and who has been much involved in educational policy matters, is an author in this regard and is associated with me in the matter I would like to speak to you about.

There are a number of points I would like to make. I have some prepared testimony which I would like to submit for the record, if I

may.

Senator PELL. It will be inserted in the record in full.
Senator MOYNIHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JAVITS. Senator, could you allow me to say that I apologize in advance. I have to go in about 10 minutes. I would very much like to hear what you have to say.

Senator MOYNIHAN. You could not be kinder, Senator Javits. Mr. Chairman, I would take the opportunity, not having appeared before this subcommittee until now, to acknowledge the debt which all of us owe you, this generation and generations to come, for your enterprise and leadership in 1972 in establishing the basic educational opportunity grant program, the Pell grants program, which has been, at least since the original World War II GI bill, certainly the most important enactment in higher education that we have known.

It fell to me to draft the Presidential message to Congress in 1970 that called for some response to the need which you answered, and it is more than ordinarily relevant to me that you did, and I would like to express my appreciation to you. The public never says its thanks very well, Senator Pell, and I would like to assume that role at this moment.

Senator PELL. Thank you.

Senator MOYNIHAN. I would say that I have before you a bill which simply extends the provisions of the Pell grants to elementary and secondary schools. This is S. 1101, and it is not, in any way, to be distinguished in its form, its purpose or its administration from the BEOG program which is now in place, especially since the major expansion which you carried out last year, the Middle Income Student Assistance Act, extending and improving the program.

Our purpose in this is to make such grants available to low income students who attend nonpublic schools of which there are altogether some 5 million students in the country. About 12 per

cent of them would be eligible for these Pell grants, if you will, and analysts at the Congressional Budget Office have estimated that, when fully in effect, such a measure would cost some $160 million a year. The average grant would be about $270.

Now, the purpose here, very clearly, is to provide aid to the low income students who attend nonpublic, in the main, church-related schools, and the object in my mind is to overcome an anomaly in our domestic social policies. We are the only democratic society in the world that does not provide aid to church-related schools in the most routine manner. Canada does; Denmark does; so do Holland, Norway, Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, to mention but

some.

In consequence, these schools are closing in the United States. I would like to make the point that these are sometimes regarded as new institutions, somehow novel and competitive with an older principle, that of the public school. They are not. It is the public schools that are new. Nongovernment schools are the original school systems of our country. Some of them go back to the 18th century. They have always been parochial, by which they meant neighborhood schools; some are not; some are private schools in the general sense of the word. But in the main, they are neighborhood schools.

They respond to a tradition of educational pluralism which has been a treasure to this country. They are not our first concern. Our first concern is the public schools. But we have provided for those schools. We have not provided for nonpublic schools, and they are commencing to disappear.

I take the liberty to tell the subcommittee of a dinner I attended in Buffalo, N.Y., on Sunday night at which Bishop Head, the bishop of the Roman Catholic diocese in western New York, who is a friend of mine and of my revered senior colleague, Senator Javits, spoke about his school system which had been there since the beginnings of settlements on the shores of Lake Ontario, and which thrived over the years.

Now in the face of among many forces-Government requirements, the general cost of education-his school system has been cut in half in the last 10 years. He said, "One by one, our schools are dying, falling like leaves from the trees in autumn," and he said it with some feeling. These were the work of a century and a half, an institution of great value.

And he made one point, and with this, I will conclude, he told of the educational activities of the archdiocese. He said, "If the public were required to take up this educational purpose, and teach these children, it would cost $170 million to the counties involved," and he said, "and it costs us $65 million, and we just do not have it." He was making the point, although not intending it, that these schools, these nonpublic schools, on balance, educate children at about 40 percent of the per student cost of the public schools. I was struck by the setting in which he did it. This was the Niagara frontier near Niagara Falls. Back under Franklin D. Roosevelt, the State of New York set up the New York State Power Authority with the object, as Roosevelt had it, of establishing a public yardstick against which to measure the costs of operations

Now, we have, not an unexpected surprise, but a nice surprise in Senator Moynihan, who is with us here. I am delighted to have him come. Do you want to sit up here?

Senator MOYNIHAN. No, Mr. Chairman. I will be happy to sit down here.

Senator PELL. I am sure the Senator from New York would like to introduce the Senator from New York.

Senator JAVITS. He has introduced himself pretty well, not only to us but to the world. [Laughter.]

Senator PELL. Senator Moynihan?

STATEMENT OF HON. DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Senator MOYNIHAN. Mr. Chairman, Senator Stafford, Senator Javits, may I have the pleasure of introducing my colleague Dr. Chester E. Finn, Jr., who is an associate of mine and who has been much involved in educational policy matters, is an author in this regard and is associated with me in the matter I would like to speak to you about.

There are a number of points I would like to make. I have some prepared testimony which I would like to submit for the record, if I may.

Senator PELL. It will be inserted in the record in full.

Senator MOYNIHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator JAVITS. Senator, could you allow me to say that I apologize in advance. I have to go in about 10 minutes. I would very much like to hear what you have to say.

Senator MOYNIHAN. You could not be kinder, Senator Javits. Mr. Chairman, I would take the opportunity, not having appeared before this subcommittee until now, to acknowledge the debt which all of us owe you, this generation and generations to come, for your enterprise and leadership in 1972 in establishing the basic educational opportunity grant program, the Pell grants program, which has been, at least since the original World War II GI bill, certainly the most important enactment in higher education that we have known.

It fell to me to draft the Presidential message to Congress in 1970 that called for some response to the need which you answered, and it is more than ordinarily relevant to me that you did, and I would like to express my appreciation to you. The public never says its thanks very well, Senator Pell, and I would like to assume that role at this moment.

Senator PELL. Thank you.

Senator MOYNIHAN. I would say that I have before you a bill which simply extends the provisions of the Pell grants to elementary and secondary schools. This is S. 1101, and it is not, in any way, to be distinguished in its form, its purpose or its administration from the BEOG program which is now in place, especially since the major expansion which you carried out last year, the Middle Income Student Assistance Act, extending and improving the program.

Our purpose in this is to make such grants available to low income students who attend nonpublic schools of which there are altogether some 5 million students in the country. About 12 per

cent of them would be eligible for these Pell grants, if you will, and analysts at the Congressional Budget Office have estimated that, when fully in effect, such a measure would cost some $160 million a year. The average grant would be about $270.

Now, the purpose here, very clearly, is to provide aid to the low income students who attend nonpublic, in the main, church-related schools, and the object in my mind is to overcome an anomaly in our domestic social policies. We are the only democratic society in the world that does not provide aid to church-related schools in the most routine manner. Canada does; Denmark does; so do Holland, Norway, Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, to mention but

some.

In consequence, these schools are closing in the United States. I would like to make the point that these are sometimes regarded as new institutions, somehow novel and competitive with an older principle, that of the public school. They are not. It is the public schools that are new. Nongovernment schools are the original school systems of our country. Some of them go back to the 18th century. They have always been parochial, by which they meant neighborhood schools; some are not; some are private schools in the general sense of the word. But in the main, they are neighborhood schools.

They respond to a tradition of educational pluralism which has been a treasure to this country. They are not our first concern. Our first concern is the public schools. But we have provided for those schools. We have not provided for nonpublic schools, and they are commencing to disappear.

I take the liberty to tell the subcommittee of a dinner I attended in Buffalo, N.Y., on Sunday night at which Bishop Head, the bishop of the Roman Catholic diocese in western New York, who is a friend of mine and of my revered senior colleague, Senator Javits, spoke about his school system which had been there since the beginnings of settlements on the shores of Lake Ontario, and which thrived over the years.

Now in the face of among many forces-Government requirements, the general cost of education-his school system has been cut in half in the last 10 years. He said, "One by one, our schools are dying, falling like leaves from the trees in autumn," and he said it with some feeling. These were the work of a century and a half, an institution of great value.

And he made one point, and with this, I will conclude, he told of the educational activities of the archdiocese. He said, "If the public were required to take up this educational purpose, and teach these children, it would cost $170 million to the counties involved," and he said, "and it costs us $65 million, and we just do not have it." He was making the point, although not intending it, that these schools, these nonpublic schools, on balance, educate children at about 40 percent of the per student cost of the public schools. I was struck by the setting in which he did it. This was the Niagara frontier near Niagara Falls. Back under Franklin D. Roosevelt, the State of New York set up the New York State Power Authority with the object, as Roosevelt had it, of establishing a public yardstick against which to measure the costs of operations

2

and consequently the profits of private utilities such as electrical utilities.

There should be some public equivalent to keep the other honest, as it were. And it seemed to me that in our time, with the Government sector so greatly grown, we could usefully have the concept of a private yardstick to measure Government performance.

There is no question that these schools-of every denominationthroughout the country perform their tasks at less than half the public cost and do it as well.

And it seems to me that there is a huge public wrong and inequity to be set right here. You know my views on this, that the Court decisions that have been rendered since 1947 are wrong, that the Supreme Court would reverse itself, as the Court many, many times has reversed itself over almost two centuries now, declaring, simply, that "Well, we no longer hold that.'

They reversed themselves in Plussey. They reversed themselves in Adkins. They reversed themselves in Lockner. They will reverse themselves in Everson. They have never even thought to challenge the Pell grants which go to students in church-related institutions of higher education. There is no difference in principle between those and elementary and secondary schools.

Senator PELL. Excuse me. Those grants go to the children, to the youngsters themselves.

Senator MOYNIHAN. The grants go to the individual. That is exactly so. And that is my testimony, sir. I simply wanted to come and to say that. I have one other general comment. I would like to draw your attention to the proposal for a National Periodical Center and commend it to you.

It is the kind of aid that higher education so much can use, and it is very small. It is the efficiency of the Federal Government providing a service like that which is unequalled and ought to be encouraged.

But it is to this matter that I wish to draw your attention and that of Senator Stafford and, of course, Senator Javits.

Senator PELL. Responding to your remarks, first to the National Periodical Center, that is going to be discussed at the White House Conference on Libraries. We await the benefit of their thoughts, and in that regard there is going to be a joint hearing immediately following the conference to receive the conference's recommendations.

As you know, it is somewhat controversial because of copyright provisions, and the industry is not all that enthusiastic for it. Senator MOYNIHAN. If the matter has engaged your attention, I

am content.

Senator PELL. Thank you.

Now, with regard to your basic proposal, as you know, I recognize the need for help for private schools, the nonpublic school-Senator MOYNIHAN. You were emphatic in that respect.

Senator PELL [continuing]. And with the help of the subcommittee, the full committee, we reported out last year title XII, of the Elementary and Secondary Education Amendments which gave a grant of one-half billion dollars to be assigned by the Commissioner of Education to the nonpublic schools.