$1,000,000 more to get a site on the Parkway. Since the building as presently situated is extremely contracted in size, in the building of a new building it would seem to me that it would be a very extravagant thing to build a building at Ninth and Market, for this reason. We have at the present time a tremendous salvage value in the present building. As stated by Doctor Parker—and I listened to him very attentively-we will have about 350,000 square feet of space in the present building, and the expenditure of $200,000 in that building at the present time will renovate it and bring it practically up to date. The space would be adequate to be used for a good many years to come; and right now, when we are stressing the point of economy, it would seem to me to be a matter of common sense and good economics to use the present building for whatever the Government can use it for.

purpose

If we are to build a new building at Ninth and Chestnut Streets, it would seem to me that the appropriation asked for would be needed there instead of being needed for a building on the Parkway. In other words, having in mind that the courts only occupy about 25 per cent of the present structure, and in order to build a new Federal courts building at Ninth and Market you are going to destroy threefourths of the building, assuming that you are going to build again a building equally as large you are destroying something that has a tremendous salvage value because, as I said before, an expenditure of $200,000, for putting in new elevators, new plumbing, and reconditioning the building, will give you a building that is as good as any building in Philadelphia for the purpose used for at the present time. The appropriation of $2,900,000, Mr. Chairman, is more than ample to build a building, whether you build it at Independence Square or the Parkway. Speaking personally, I prefer the Parkway because the Municipal court building will be built on this square, Logan Square, which is a part of the Parkway, and I understand that the State has been contemplating for some time building on the east side of Logan Square; and if this building were built on the south side it would form a triangle of three large buildings, Federal, State, and municipal court buildings, right in the same section.

The city of Philadelphia has spent about $65,000,000 to build the Parkway in Philadelphia, with the buildings on it, including the Art Museum and the other buildings there. The Parkway to-day is restricted as to use. We are not allowed to build on the western part of it apartment houses or commercial structures. We are restricted to the east, also. The only kind of buildings that we can build are buildings of this type, buildings that have some monumental value. For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I think that there is no need to spend any more money than the appropriation made. I am inclined. to think we will have enough left over to recondition the building at Ninth and Market Streets when the post office moves out and the Federal court moves out of that building.

As a matter of good economics I think it is a splendid idea to keep the present building as we have, recondition it, build a new Federal courts building on the Parkway.

And I want to say for the merchants of Ninth and Market, a good many of them who are good friends of mine, that that loss of 63,000 feet in that building will certainly be made up of other

activities that will take the place of that space when the building is reconditioned. I can not see where it is a tremendous loss.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you, to see if I understand you correctly: Do you think that the present building can be remodeled? Mr. GREENBERG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that a suitable site can be acquired for a new courthouse?

Mr. GREENBERG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the new courthouse could be built?

Mr. GREENBERG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. A suitable courthouse, of course; all within the allotment of $2,900,000 now made?

Mr. GREENBERG. Already appropriated.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that correct?

Mr. GREENBERG. Yes, sir.

Senator DICKINSON. It is your suggestion, then, that all that we would need here would be an authorization to change sites? Mr. GREENBERG. Yes, sir.

Senator DICKINSON. Rather than any additional money?

Mr. GREENBERG. That is all you will need; yes, sir.

Senator DICKINSON. I do not care so much where you build it, but I do not want you to ask for any more money.

Mr. GREENBERG. I think that will solve your problem, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; thank you.

Representative DAVIS. The next witness is the former consulting engineer of the city of Philadelphia, Mr. Swaab.

STATEMENT OF SOLOMON M. SWAAB, FORMER CONSULTING ENGINEER, CITY OF PHILADELPHIA, PHILADELPHIA, PA.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir; your name, please, and address for the reporter.

Mr. SWAAB. Solomon M. Swaab, Philadelphia.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Swaab; we will hear what you have to say.

Mr. SWAAB. Mr. Chairman, about nine years ago the city of Philadelphia saw fit to revise the city plan in the neighborhood of the city hall in connection with proposed improvements which the Pennsylvania Railroad then had in mind, and I was the engineer selected by the city to make those changes in connection with the executive officers and the engineers of the Pennsylvania Railroad.

I have looked into this plan and I find that there is absolutely nothing inconsistent with the plan as developed in putting this building on the Eighteenth and Cherry Streets site on the Parkway. In other words, I have seen it stated by the opponents of this scheme, of this project, that it is necessary to block Cherry Street, to remove it from the plan, and I say that there is absolutely no necessity to do that; that Cherry Street can be maintained exactly as it is and be permitted to run right through underneath the building at the present level of Cherry Street and provide ample room on either side of the street underneath the building, exactly as is done in this building, for taxicabs and for automobiles that are being used in connection with that building.

The city of Philadelphia designed a system of underground streets, called concourses, and some of those streets have been built, and this will fit in admirably with that entire project. There is absolutely, as I say, nothing inconsistent with it, with any site, in fact, on the Parkway.

That is all that I have to say, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions?

Senator BARBOUR. No; thank you.

Senator DICKINSON. I would just like to ask you one question. We are trying to divide up the lawyers, as I understand. On this map here that is Thirteenth Street, is it?

Mr. SWAAB. Thirteenth Street is immediately east of the city hall. This is the first I have seen this picture.

Senator DICKINSON. Your parkway goes to Eighteenth and down there to Thirteenth

Mr. SWAAB (interposing). The city hall is not shown on there. East of city hall is in this territory. This is west of city hall [indicating on map].

Senator DICKINSON. I see.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Davis.

Representative DAVIS. Mr. Anderson, former assistant United States district attorney, would like to say a few words.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. ANDERSON, FORMER ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, MEMBER OF THE BAR, PHILADELPHIA, PA.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Anderson; will you give your name to the reporter, please, and whom you represent?

Mr. ANDERSON. Maj. Robert M. Anderson, former assistant United States attorney, member of the bar.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I want to recall to your minds the testimony and the brief that was delivered before you by a former member of your honorable body, the Hon. George Wharton Pepper, and I do not know whether the matters that he stated at that time would be included in this hearing. So that there would be no mistake, that you will have before you his views upon this situation, I wanted to just read his conclusions into the record and very briefly call this to your attention.

The CHAIRMAN. We have in the record everything that Mr. Pepper said.

Mr. ANDERSON. I wanted to reiterate this.

The CHAIRMAN. It has been printed.

Mr. ANDERSON. If you will bear with me for a minute, so that the other speakers may know just what they were and recall to their

minds:

First. That the Parkway is the one eligible, dignified site upon which to locate a Federal court building.

Second. That from the point of view of the great majority of the bar and from the point of view of those having access to the courts for business purposes, from the point of view of a tendency to move the State courts out along the same across, the great balance of convenience is in favor of the Parkway site.

155532-33-PT 2- -2

And finally, that the hue and cry which has been raised against it, based upon fancied injury to property values in business down town, is in my judg ment a hue and cry that is raised by the shortsighted, and that it has no adequate foundation in fact, and that 20 years from now everybody will rejoice, if the question is not decided in the light of that kind of misleading illumination.

Now, you will have all sorts of evidence before you that organized bodies have voted one way or the other, and I used to spend some of my time down there handing up memorials from chambers of commerce, boards of trade, bar associations, and all scrts of organizations, and I found that, while they received suitable consideration of Senators, they did not necessarily control their actions.

You will be told that the bar association of Philadelphia voted yesterday 2 to 1 to protest against this Parkway site, and out of 4,000 members of the bar I think that the meeting was attended by about 100, who said that they did not want to vote on the proposition and did not, and the thirty-odd voted for the Parkway site and about sixty-cdd voted against it, and I have been told, although I make this representation only on what has come to me, that there is a petition signed by about 750 members.

And I might add there that we have a petition now that is signed by 800 members of the bar asking that this Federal judiciary building be placed upon the Parkway.

When the smoke clears away you will have decided this question irrespective of the conflict of voices, and when you do that I think that the considerations I have outlined you will find are the ones that have been considered.

Those are the words of the leading member of our bar, and he represents the biggest number of the members of the bar. And I might say for the benefit of the committee that there are 3,000 members of the bar in Philadelphia, and we had a survey made and I think somebody else following me will give you the exact figures, but my recollection is that there are only 254 of those having offices east of Thirteenth Street toward the present site, while all the other offices

Senator DICKINSON (interposing). How long is a city block in this area here?

Mr. ANDERSON. I would say a city block there was 350 or 400 feet. Senator DICKINSON. Some one says it is 440 feet.

Mr. ANDERSON. I did not undertake to measure it, but I am just guessing.

Senator DICKINSON. The four blocks or five blocks would be about 2,200 feet.

Mr. ANDERSON. We took the dividing line of Fourteenth Street as a measure for the offices, and all the office buildings are located west, and the trend is all westward, and this Parkway was built at the cost to the city of considerable money, and I think altogether there have been expended something like $65,000,000 on it now, and the only kind of buildings that can go on it are monumental buildings of this character, and therefore I am heartily in favor of this Parkway.

Of course, I am only speaking as a citizen and a member of the bar and a taxpayer. I have no interest whatever in any particular site, but I do firmly and honestly believe that the Parkway is the site for this building.

As a matter of fact, the main purpose in asking for this court, I recollect it, if I recollect right, is because I have been assistant United States attorney for six years, and I practice in and out the Federal building at Ninth and Chestnut Streets. We had great diffi

culty there with all the judges and witnesses and courts and attorneys, due to the fact that you could not hear. The noises were so terrific on the outside because of the traffic jam that the judges asked that we have some place, and it is the desire of all the judges of the district court and the United States circuit court that this building be removed to a quiet place, and if you will compare the congestion of traffic at Ninth and Chestnut and Ninth and Market with the pictures that you have before you and compare it with a nice, quiet place on the Parkway, and also additional room for parking space, you will immediately see the difference.

We, even, had to install in the courtrooms megaphones and loudspeakers, so that you can hear. I know I myself many times had to go up alongside of witnesses and had to yell questions, and they had to yell answers back so they could hear. We even had the jury box built and raised up alongside of the bench, so that they could even hear. All the courts are arranged on the outside, and there is no way of changing it, because you have to get light.

If you tear down that building-it is built of granite; it is 40 years old, it is true, but there are buildings in Europe 900 years old that are still being used for courtrooms, and so forth. This building is built of the very best Vermont granite, and it is one of the finest buildings we have in Philadelphia, which I will show you here by a picture in the Geographic Magazine, a copy of which you all have.

The CHAIRMAN. We have them, I think.

Mr. ANDERSON. There is one corner of the building with the statue of Benjamin Franklin on it.

There is another point I want to call to the attention of the Senate. Probably you have not thought and given consideration to this fact: That if you move the Federal judiciary building out onto the Parkway you will leave vacant several courtrooms there on the third floor of the old building. There is now pending before the House and the Senate, as you all well know, a bill for the amendment of the bankruptcy law, and in the amendment of that bankruptcy law it provides for several referees to be appointed, many of whom will have to sit and hear large questions and many, many witnesses, and they could very readily use those. As it is now, the present referees are crowded with small office space. Many times the litigants and the creditors can not get into those meetings. That bill, I understand, is going to go through, and it is going to be very useful to keep this building right in operation to-day for future use coming on in that bill. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Davis.

Representative DAVIS. I would like to introduce Mr. J. Hector McNeal, a member of the bar of Philadelphia.

STATEMENT OF J. HECTOR MCNEAL, MEMBER OF THE BAR, PHILADELPHIA, PA.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. McNeal; give your name and address to the reporter.

Mr. MCNEAL. J. Hector McNeal, member of the bar of Philadelphia.

Senator DICKINSON. Mr. McNeal, what is the difference between the Thirteenth Street conditions at the present Federal building and No. 1, the Parkway site suggested?