Mr. HAM. I will say that our objections to the provisions of this bill are twofold. We want, first, that the street-railway lines shall be such as will properly serve the transportation needs of the community and so located as to form a harmonious part of the transportation system of the future which will necessarily be developed. Also we wish to present to this committee what we consider the unfairness of placing this burden upon the street-railway companies. We feel that the burden of making the changes in the trackage is a burden which should be carried as a cost of the development to be borne by the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. The entire cost?

Mr. HAM. I will lay down this formula: That if we receive no benefit whatever from the rearrangement of tracks-and as we will attempt to show we are going to be harmed rather than helped by the rearrangement-the most that we could equitably be asked to contribute is that portion of the life of our property which has so far expired.

Senator SWANSON. Your charter provides the right to change it at any time

Mr. HAM. I am not going to dispute the legal rights of Congress to do this. I am not a lawyer.

Senator SWANSON. They gave you the right to run on these

streets.

Mr. HAM. Yes.

Senator SWANSON. And the Government has power to change it whenever it sees proper.

Mr. HAM. I presume that would be good law; but we have occupied these spaces for many years and we appeal to you more upon the grounds of equity-that is, I do, because I am not a lawyer; I am only a railroad man-that here is an improvement that is being made for the beautification of the Capitol grounds, not even to cast a burden upon the citizens of the District of Columbia but that is to be borne exclusively by the Federal Government; and we, as citizens of the District of Columbia, without any benefit from the burdens that you are placing upon us, should, we believe, pay only that portion of the cost which is represented by so much of our property as has been wasted in service.

That will amount, roughly, to about $100,000. The total cost of this project will run up into much higher figures, and that will be testified to later.

But those are the two major things, first, that we want a practicable and advantageous way of serving the public. This is one of the most important lines we have, an east and west line from the whole section lying east of the Capitol.

Senator SWANSON. How does it interfere with the beautification of the park system and the Capitol and the buildings surrounding it?

Mr. HAM. The problem which has confronted the architects has been that there must be an east-and-west car line to run on the north side of the Capitol some place. It must be some place between the Capitol and the Plaza. The available streets are B Street, C Street, and D Street. Those are all there are. Your whole choice falls between those three.

Senator SMOOт. That is, you mean northeast?

Mr. HAM. B, C, and D Streets north, and a portion east and probably west.

After the passage of this bill by the House we immediately went into a conference with Mr. Lynn and were given every opportunity to see what was proposed, and met the architect, Mr. Parsons, about this matter, and we went into the details of this proposed scheme of closing C Street to vehicular traffic between New Jersey Avenue and C Street, the removal of street-car tracks and re-laying them in a subway passing under Delaware Avenue. We took that up first, because that is what the bill provided for.

Our engineers now report that this is to be accomplished in part by an open space 25 feet in width with a high retaining wall on the south side of the tracks and a lower retaining wall on the north side, and by an extra subway at Delaware Avenue and the proposed 300 feet along the Plaza at North Capitol Street. In other words, beginning with First Street Northeast we go into a depressed open area, which is 35 feet in width, and cross under Delaware Avenue in a subway, then through an open area again, passing under North Capitol Street Plaza in a subway.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that the members of the committee could get a little better idea and follow you better if we could have a few minutes to examine this proposed plan which is covered by the bill. You can explain it, or Mr. Lynn can.

(Informal discussion followed, after which the following proceedings took place :)

Mr. HAM. Our preference is to run our cars through B Street— Senator SMOOT. That certainly could not be permitted.

Mr. HAM. Do you have such a dislike for street cars, Senator? Senator SMOOT. Not when they are in their proper place.

Mr. HAM. You have been living for a great many years in a very busy section of Washington. You have had a constant stream of automobile and trucks and buses pass your house. Do you think those are any less objectionable than street cars, especially with underground construction work? The cars are certainly better kept. up than the average automobile.

I said I did not want to appear the least bit as interfering with the judgment of the Senate, but I can not follow you on that-that you object to a street-car line when it is built with underground construction, without any wires or poles of any nature or description, which has cost, as you all know, many millions of dollars. There are tens of thousands of people that must be moved daily, and if you do not move them by street cars you have got to move them in buses or private automobiles. I can not for the life of me see why you would rather have B Street filled up with automobiles and exclude the street cars.

Senator SMOOT. They are noisy. There is no doubt about that. But not only that, is there a plaza in any large city in the world where they allow a street car to run through? I have been trying to think offhand whether there is one in the world. Do you know of any, Colonel Grant?

Colonel GRANT. Not with the exception of Washington, perhaps, Senator.

Senator SMOOT. I mean outside of Washington. I do not know of any other city in the world that permits street cars to run through a beauty spot, or a breathing place, as it were, for all the people.

Mr. HAM. Confining myself to that point for just a moment—you have got to have a street car line through this plaza. From your standpoint that is unfortunate, but the bill provides for it.

Senator SMOOT. Yes; but it goes underground.

Mr. HAM. You have a depressed area which is certainly a blot on the landscape. On one side you have a retaining wall some 25 or 30 feet high. Is that correct? I do not want to exaggerate.

Senator SMOOT. You mean, above the ground?

Mr. HAM. Yes.

Senator SMOOT. That is on New Jersey Avenue, is it not?
Mr. HAM. No; on C Street.

The CHAIRMAN. It is proposed, I think, to terrace it from the Capitol Grounds north.

Mr. PARSONS. The whole situation is this. The problem is to extend the Capitol Grounds. I do not think there will be any solution at all of this problem if we let the street-car line come crashing through the park. From the architectural point of view the first problem seemed to be to find some way to get this street-car line through in such a way as to avoid any unsightliness.

Senator SMOOT. Where is the retaining wall?

Mr. PARSONS. In order to do that it occurred to us that the best thing to do would be to terrace this [indicating on map] and extend the terrace right over the central part and let the street cars pass underneath. So they leave New Jersey Avenue at grade and come in between the trees and the wall, which, incidentally, becomes the wall of a garage. Passing under the terrace, about 300 feet, they come up along a slight grade and under Delaware Avenue, where there will be a stop and access to the Senate Office Building; then up to First Street. So that I think the nuisance of a street car line through there will be very much minimized.

Mr. LYNN. The retaining wall would not obstruct the view from the station at all or the view of the Capitol. It would be a very attractive feature.

Senator SMOOT. The retaining wall will be something like an ornamental bridge, or something of that nature?

Mr. PARSONS. Yes, sir; something like the terrace of the Capitol. We follow that same idea.

The CHAIRMAN. Supposing cars come down Pennsylvania Avenue, turn on to the new avenue, down to the Union Station, and then back up First Street?

Senator SMOOT. From the Peace Monument.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. LYNN. They would not come to the Peace Monument, Senator. Mr. HAM. It does not work out practically. You have too much of a load. You can not carry that around the Union Station. The Washington Railway & Electric Co. has its cars coming to Thirteenth and D Streets NE., to First and D Streets SE., and the Lincoln Park line, which does not go around the Plaza now at all, but is the line that comes through New Jersey Avenue. On top of that you have

the Capital Traction service through here [indicating on map] to the Union Station, as you suggest, and you can not get them through. It is an impossible situation.

This has been studied. I want to proceed in exactly the way the committee desires, but there are engineering problems which make this plan, as we have explained to Mr. Lynn and Mr. Parsons, I will not say absolutely impossible, but decidedly impracticable.

Senator SMOOт. Why? They do it everywhere else in the world. Mr. HAM. I am speaking of the plan outlined in the bill for closing C Street to vehicular traffic between New Jersey Avenue and First Street. The conferences with Mr. Lynn and Mr. Parsons showed that this plan presented numerous construction and operating difficulties, creating a grade of at least 10 per cent between Delaware Avenue and the First Street end of the subway. That is a very excessive grade; and under those conditions it would be an extremely hazardous one, such a grade terminating in curves at both top and bottom, and it should be condemned as impracticable and as presenting a source of danger to which the street-car patrons would be subjected.

To modify this condition, to permit of a reasonable grade, Delaware Avenue at the subway would have to be raised at least 4 feet and the intersection of First Street at the east end of the subway would have to be lowered 3 feet.

The subway station to the Senate Office Building would be in a most undesirable and hazardous position, namely, on the steep grade above mentioned, also requiring a series of steps for access thereto. Again, on First Street the top of the steam railroad tunnel is only about 2 feet under the surface of the street from D Street to Union Station Plaza. The raising of elevations within this area will be required, thus bringing about, along with the subway street grade changes, the entire regrading and resurfacing of First Street from practically B Street north to the Plaza and Delaware Avenue from B Street north to D Street north, with corresponding run-off grades at all intersecting streets, likely affecting the abutting properties thereon.

All of these difficulties were considered at the conferences with Mr. Lynn and Mr. Parsons, and I think I am correct in stating that it was the consensus of opinion that if any changes in present track structures ultimately became necessary some alternate plan would have to be worked out.

A suggestion was made by Mr. Parsons that the tracks might run on the surface of C Street from First Street east to the west side of Delaware Avenue. That is, keeping on the surface and crossing Delaware Avenue at grade, then going into a depressed area through a subway under North Capitol Street Plaza and emerging at grade at the east side of New Jersey Avenue. This, however, did not adjust the difficulties encountered with the trackage proposed for First Street east and was presented as one consideration in a further and more exhaustive study of the matter.

Senator SMOOT. That is what the bill provides?

Mr. HAM. No; this second suggestion of Mr. Parsons is not what the bill provides. As you see, one calls for the beginning of the depressed area to extend from First Street east to New Jersey Avenue, whereas this last suggestion is that the tracks be on grade,

crossing Delaware Avenue here [indicating] and then going into the depressed area.

Do I make that clear?

Senator SMOOT. Yes. It makes a further subway and I do not think it would be any better, or as good.

Mr. HAM. It would tend to obviate these practical difficulties which the engineers, I think, recognize.

Senator SMOOT. You would rather have the depression begin on a straightaway than on a turn?

Mr. HAM. We can get much less grade in that way. A 10 per cent grade under those circumstances-and I have only touched upon some of the difficulties-would be much greater than anything we have in Washington; and under the conditions which would exist there I would think it would be a very hazardous situation to which streetcar patrons should not be exposed.

Senator SMOOT. Tell the committee what your proposition is.

Mr. HAM. At this stage of the game we found that we ought to have the judgment of some one of greater experience than ours, and we employed Mr. J. Rowland Bibbins, a traffic expert and engineer of standing, to investigate this matter, and he is here to testify, if that is the wish of the committee. He has made quite an extensive and exhaustive study of this whole situation and he belives, as I have stated, that it would be preferable to continue on B Street.

Of course if Congress says that under no condition is B Street to be available, that is all there is to it. We can not say anything to that. If they simply say, "We will not have you on B Street," that sort of closes the argument.

Senator SMOOT. If there is any other place besides B Street, we do not want you on B Street so far as I am concerned.

Mr. HAM. We would like to present Mr. Bibbins and let him explain this matter. He has had very broad experience in many cities and has, I think, ideas which would be of interest to the committee. Then if we have anything further to say we will say that after Mr. Bibbons has closed.

Mr. HANNA. Before Mr. Bibbins begins, may I say a word to the committee?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly, Mr. Hanna.

STATEMENT OF JOHN H. HANNA, PRESIDENT CAPITAL TRACTION CO., WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. HANNA. Senator, as president of the Capital Traction Co., I would like to add a little to what Mr. Ham has said. I am not going over the same ground he has covered and take up your time.

We are in this position, and I think both of the companies are. We have a layout of tracks feeding the Union Station, the Capitol, and the Senate and House office buildings, very satisfactorily meeting the situation to-day from a transportation point of view.

I want to speak about this entirely from my own point of view. I am not an architect. I know nothing whatever about the duties that these people have to meet in beautifying Washington, and I would be the last person in the world, I believe, to object to anything that might be done for the beautification of Washington, because, as the operator of one of the transportation companies here, we