Mr. REDMOND. Yes, I will leave the table including those 18 cities, the hours worked per week, and the salaries, for the record. (The tabulation follows:)

Mr. REDMOND. So you can recognize why we are opposing the extension of social security to the fire fighters, especially because of the low wages that are being paid, the long hours we are being compelled to work because of the low wages. And we know that it is not going to benefit the type of service that we are rendering to the communities at the present time.

Now, since the inception of the organization, in 1918, and up until 1928, there was a continual climb, as far as the fire losses were concerned, in the United States and Canada. In the United States the losses increased until they hit the all-time high in 1928 of $550,000,000. In those self-same years there were created in the various States throughout the United States pension acts for fire fighters, with the result that the losses started to recede until they hit the all-time low in 1937 of $225,000,000 annually, or a saving of approximately $325,000,000 annually. Of course, it is true that after the war, they again climbed to $700,000,000, but there was a change-over from wartime activities to peacetime activities, and we anticipated because of this change-over in personnel and various other activities that the losses would increase approximately in comparison to what they were in 1928, which would be three times. We anticipated that the inventories would be three times the value of what they were in 1928. So you can readily understand that we are doing everything we possibly can to reduce this loss, and the only way we can continue to reduce this loss and the attendant loss of life and injury sustained by fire is to have these protective measures at the State level and at the city level.

Now, there is the humane side of the question that I would like to bring to your attention. Being a trustee for 18 years, I can say that it was our sacred, inviolate duty to see that every beneficiary under the act was properly taken care of. During the 18 years that I was a member of the Chicago firemen's pension fund we never had an orphan go wrong. We had to arrange for the shifting of the guardianship of some of those orphans, but the result was that all of those children came through in a fine manner. Some of them are lawyers, and some of them are doctors today.

As far as the disabled men are concerned, some of them had been in hospitals for years, and their family neglected them. We saw that the family went out and visited them and brought clothing and newspapers to them and things which they should have. I am just calling this to your attention for the reason that we consider them by name and not by number, which is what they will be if they are to be under social security. We are very anxious that that be prevented, and that they not be required to come under social security.

That is all I have to say, unless you have some questions to ask. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much for your appearance. Mr. REDMOND. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. James McGuire?

You may have a seat if you will, sir. You are appearing on behalf of the International Association of Fire Fighters also?

STATEMENT OF JAMES T. McGUIRE, PRESIDENT, CHICAGO FIREMEN'S ASSOCIATION, LOCAL NO. 2, INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS

Mr. MCGUIRE. I am appearing for the Chicago Fire Fighters Association, in conjunction with the international.

Senator KERR. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman who has just left the stand is the national president of the Fire Fighters Association? Mr. MCGUIRE. Yes, sir.

Senator KERR. I wonder if he would tell us that he has the same confidence in the security of the benefits of the firemen in the average. town that the preceding witness had.

Just answer "yes" or "no."

Mr. REDMOND. Yes. I do. But I would like to explain why even under conditions, where the fire fighters have been charged with paying the benefits, in the city of Chicago

Senator KERR. I am talking about the towns of 25,000 population. Mr. REDMOND. The answer is the same; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Redmond.

All right, Mr. McGuire.

Mr. MCGUIRE. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am James T. McGuire, president of the Chicago Firemen's Association, Local No. 2, International Association of Fire Fighters, affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, and have requested this opportunity to appear before you to represent the rank and file of the Chicago Fire Department, comprising some 3,500 members.

At present, Chicago firemen contribute to and are beneficiaries of our long-established pension fund. We wish to register our objection and opposition to the proposed expansion of the Federal Insurance Contributions Act to apply to or include our membership under House bill 6000.

While our organization approves of and is in favor of making social security available to those municipal or other governmental employees having no retirement coverage or whose pension protection is inadequate, we are definitely opposed to any extension of the scope of the Federal social security program to affect employees having a stable pension fund.

Our members view with keen anxiety the proposal to open the door to our possible inclusion under the proposed House bill 6000. They are concerned, even though House bill 6000 provides optional participation by a two-thirds referendum vote. Many firemen have, by their contributions, built up equities of considerable value and they are fearful that these equities are in jeopardy by any change that may result from this proposed legislation. They fear that the lower rate of contribution under the Federal Social Security Act would prove too great a temptation to short-sighted public officials and to selfishly motivated taxpaying groups who would seize upon this legislation as an opportunity to relieve the local taxpayers of their legally existing established obligations to present pension funds, thereby decreasing the efficiency of fire departments through our Nation. Of even greater reason for retaining our present pension system, and objection to inclusion under Federal old-age pension, it is an important fact that Chicago firemen, regardless of age in the event of incapacity, are eligible and become beneficiaries of our present pension fund.

The only adequate protection to the firemen of the city of Chicago is complete and absolute exclusion from the provisions of House bill 6000, and it should be amended as follows:

First: In section 218, under definition, strike out (C) of paragraph 5, page 80, lines 19 through 22.

Second: In section 218, strike out (D) (1) of line 10, page 82, through line 17, page 83, and substitute:

(7) Such agreement shall exclude all public employees in positions covered by a retirement system, as previously defined in subsection (b) (c) of this section.

We wish to thank you for this opportunity of appearing before you, and we will be glad to answer any questions you want to put. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

If not, we thank you for your appearance, Mr. McGuire.
Mr. MCGUIRE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thom? You may be seated, and please identify yourself for the record.

STATEMENT OF GLENN THOM, PRESIDENT, DETROIT FIRE FIGHTERS ASSOCIATION, OF THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS, DETROIT, MICH.

Mr. THOM. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, my name is Glenn Thom. I am president of the Detroit Fire Fighters Association, which is part of the International Association of Fire Fighters, and also a member of the board of trustees of the city of Detroit policemen and firemen retirement system. I will read a brief prepared statement with respect to that system:

This is to certify that the following resolution was adopted by the board of trustees of the policemen and firemen retirement system at its meeting held Monday, February 13, 1950:

"By Mr. Woltemate, supported by Mr. Saigger:

"Whereas the policemen and firemen of the city of Detroit, numbering ap proximately 7,000 members and beneficiaries, have been covered by retirement plans for more than 60 years; and

"Whereas the said policemen and firemen are now covered by a retirement plan, the provisions of which they consider to be in the best interests of the city of Detroit and themselves; and

"Whereas the said policemen and firemen are concerned with efforts being made in Washington to include them under the provisions of the Social Security Act by direct Federal action or by indirect Federal action, designed to apply public pressures to accomplish their eventual inclusion under the act: Therefore be it

"Resolved, That the board of trustees of the policemen and firemen retirement system of the city of Detroit urge the Senate Finance Committee, in their deliberations, to protect the interests of said policemen and firemen in he city of Detroit by positive exclusion from the Senate bill corresponding to H. R. 6000; and be it further

"Resolved, That Mr. Glenn E. Thom, of the Detroit Fire Department, as an elected trustee of the policemen and firemen retirement system, and/or a reprepresentative of the Police Department, appearing before the Senate Finance Committee, be authorized to speak for the members and beneficiaries of the policemen and firemen retirement system of the city of Detroit."

Yeas: Trustees Woltemate, Markey, Furlong, Saigger, Creedon, and Chairman Reinelt-6.

Nays: None.

J. C. HORGAN, Executive Secretary.

I submit that in evidence to the committee.

Gentlemen, we take the same position as the previous spokesmen representing the International Association of Fire Fighters and the various local organizations represented therein. It is our opinions and our conclusion that to be included under social security as proposed would be definitely detrimental; possibly not at the present time but in the long run. So that we have asked the positive exclusion as mentioned in the resolution.

The CHAIRMAN. Is your organization affiliated with any of the national unions?

Mr. THOм. We are affiliated with the International Association of Fire Fighters.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Thom.

Mr. THOм. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. We have one other witness scheduled for the morning-Mr. John P. Crane.

Mr. Crane, will you please identify yourself for the record?

STATEMENT OF JOHN P. CRANE, PRESIDENT, LOCAL 94, INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS, NEW YORK CITY

Mr. CRANE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I am John P. Crane, fireman first-class, Fire Department, city of New York, president of Local 94, International Association of Fire Fighters, A. F. of L.

While we do not feel that our pension systems are adequate, we do feel, however, that they are more in line with our needs and the needs of our communities than social security for fire fighters. Therefore, we request the committee to exclude completely paid firemen of the fire departments throughout the United States.

Our reason for this is a survey made at the request of a former mayor of the city of New York, Mayor LaGuardia, which indicated over the years that 1,765 fire fighters had died at an average age of less than 50

years.

Our pension systems give protection, under those terms, and I do not believe that the protection we have is anywhere in line with social security, which is considerably less.

Now, the cost of present protection to the fire department of the city of New York runs around 8 million dollars, and in 10 years it will be up to 12 millions. Add to this the cost of social security, and you are merely adding a burden to the city of New York which cannot benefit us as fire fighters, because we don't, first of all, live long enough to get the benefit.

Secondly, it is a temptation to the city officials. And our experience with city officials indicates that you can arrive at decisions when ex pediency so determines and force the community to meet your requirements, but when the time comes to live up to the intention of those agreements we have the same experience that I find the papers indicate we have with the Soviet Government. The intention always deviates from what it was originally. And where in 1940 we agreed to pay 6 percent for our pensions, and the city passed a law, we found we were paying 6 percent but that the new men were paying 14, 15, 19, and 23 percent. Now are you going to ask these fellows to contribute more than that? It is a physical impossibility, on our salaries, with income tax and other deductions, to do so.

Our occupation is peculiar. We have one of the lowest life expectancies, 53 years of age. Our earning expectancy is 23 years less than normal. We have the highest incidence of accidents, disabling accidents. We have the highest incidence, by 100 percent, of heart disease. We have the highest incidence of unemployables among our retired men, of age groups running from 40 to 65, of any known group in the country. That is why social security is so inadequate to our needs and why pension systems are a requirement to efficient service— pension systems based upon the needs of the community.

And in New York City we pay the highest rates in the countryMayor O'Dwyer is making an effort to reduce those rates-but the requirements of the fire fighter are also the highest. In our 20-year retirement, we give consideration to the fact of our occupation that when you are reaching your twentieth year in service, you are no longer employable, and the city examines you and finds you are unfit and you are retired; and our experience is that there is nowhere else we can go and get a job.

On that basis, please don't put us in social security and tempt the administration or any governor of the State of New York to take our pension systems away from us, because our probationary firemen for 6 months are not covered and therefore they would have nothing to say about whether they would go in or would not go in under this legislation.

Our systems are a contractual obligation of the city of New York. and for those firemen outside of the city it is a contractual obligation on the part of the State of New York. We cannot go broke while the State of New York is a solvent corporation.

Gentlemen, I submit that is our request, and I thank you for the privilege of appearing here.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much for your appearance Mr. Crane.

Mr. CRANE. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Attention has been called to the fact that Mr Lukens, of Middletown, Ohio, is here and desires to testify. You may proceed, Mr. Lukens.