Annual report to Congress...

Mr. SCHMID. You asked for it 2 years ago and we have inserted it since.

Mr. THOMAS. That is all in there, yes.

AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING

What about the new tabulating equipment for $20,000? Does this pay for some experimentation?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. THOMAS. What does ADP mean?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Automatic data processing.

Mr. THOMAS. Who is doing the research and study? Is it Remington Rand?

Mr. SCHMID. National Bureau of Standards. We are not using any of the companies who sell or rent equipment.

Mr. THOMAS. This is peculiar research and you pay the Bureau of Standards to help you figure out what you need?

Mr. SCHMID. That is right. Nothing is there for machines; $20,000 is for some testing of other facilities.

Mr. THOMAS. How have you been carrying this item?

Mr. SCHMID. This is the first year we put it in.

Mr. THOMAS. Why are you the last to move in this area?

Mr. SCHMID. We had some of this.

Mr. THOMAS. You have one little machine there.

Mr. SCHMID. A pretty good sized machine. There are many areas where we might do more.

Mr. THOMAS. For instance, where?

Mr. SCHMID. Many functions in connection with tariff examinations, our work with respect to insurance. There are many reports we received from carriers of various types.

For example, where we might do more work

Mr. JONAS. Would it not be possible to check other Government agencies? Almost every agency in Government is using these machines. Why do you have to spend $20,000 when all you have to do is to go to the Veterans' Administration or various Departments of Defense?

Mr. SCHMID. You cannot do it this way. You have to go in and carefully examine each and every single operation.

Incidentally, in this process you question every operation and make sure it is the simplest and easiest way to do things. You develop the information. Once you develop the information, and an expert's knowledge is applied, then you have to program this work. You have to do a certain amount of testing before you determine the type of computer you should have.

Our study contemplates a 2-year program.

Mr. JONAS. I would have thought pretty nearly every machine in the market is in use by some agency of the Government. Apparently that is not so.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. That may be, but we cannot tell without testing what, if any, of our additional operations are subject to machine operations.

CONSOLIDATING OPERATIONS

Mr. BOLAND. Why can you not combine a couple of these sections, the section of locomotive inspection and the section of railroad safety? Mr. HUTCHINSON. One reason would be that locomotive inspection is a statutory operation. It is provided for by statute, and the locomotive inspector is provided for by statute.

I really feel we now have as much coordination there as we can expect to have considering the nature of the law and the interest of the people involved.

Mr. BOLAND. Why can't the Bureau of Water Carriers and Freight Forwarders be carried by the Bureau of Freight Carriers? Why can't this work be done by some other bureau rather than setting up a separate bureau?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. I suppose it would be possible to functionalize to a greater extent than we have, but actually the water carriers insist on having this recognition of their industry. While these functions perhaps could be carried on by some other bureau, quite frankly, I think that is one of the big reasons we still have the Bureau as a separate operating bureau.

Mr. BOLAND. How many water carriers are there?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Over 300.

Mr. BOLAND. Most of there water carriers work on island rivers? Mr. HUTCHINSON. Inland waterways.

Mr. BOLAND. To give them status is the reason we have this Bureau? Mr. HUTCHINSON. That is one reason; yes, sir.

Mr. BOLAND. Who are the freight forwarders? Give me an example of this term. Are they water carriers, too?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. A common carrier, so described by statute. Mr. BOLAND. Are these freight forwarders used with respect to waterways?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. No.

Mr. BOLAND. These are freight forwarders who go everywhere in the Nation?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Yes, sir.

RENTAL EXPENSES

Mr. OSTERTAG. Going back again to the question of rental and the transfer of the budget item for space, I have in my hand a communication from the Budget Director to the chairman of our committee dated February 27, 1961, which carries with it a tabulation of various agencies and the amount included in the 1962 budget for this purpose. Listed here is the Interstate Commerce Commission, under "Salaries and expenses, $50,000 for 9,000 square feet.

In your justification under rent it shows 25,000. Is that the increase?

Mr. SCHMID. An increase of 25,000.

Mr. OSTERTAG. I am trying to reconcile those figures.

Mr. SCHMID. We gave our figure to the Bureau of the Budget.
Mr. RYAN. This is the figure the Bureau gave us, Mr. Schmid.
Mr. OSTERTAG. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

Mr. HUTCHINSON. The figure we brought forward in our budget is the figure we got from them. I don't know how they reconcile it with the $50,000 figure shown in this tabulation that you have. Mr. OSTERTAG. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

Mr. RYAN. GSA recommended 21,950 square feet.

Mr. THOMAS. Perhaps the first figure of $50,000 is right. You will not get 21,000 square feet for $25,000.

Mr. SCHMID. We will have to reconcile that figure in some way. We cannot do it here at this time, Mr. Ostertag.

Mr. OSTERTAG. For the record will you provide the answer to this? Mr. RYAN. Yes, sir.

(The information requested follows:)

We have discussed with the Bureau of the Budget, the discrepancy in the amount ($25,000) included in the Commission's budget justification for rental of office space as compared with the amount ($50,000) reported to the Appropriations Committee by the Bureau of the Budget. We have been advised by that Bureau that only $25,000 was provided in the budget allowance for rental of new office space for this Commission.

AUTOMOBILES

Mr. JONAS. Why do you need 6 additional automobiles and 36 replacements?

Mr. SCHMID. The six new automobiles are for the two additional supervisors and four additional safety inspectors we are requesting. Mr. JONAS. Where will they be located?

Mr. QUALLES. San Francisco, Minneapolis, Nashville, Philadelphia, Kansas City, San Antonio.

Mr. JONAS. Hasn't GSA a motor pool in each of those cities?

Mr. SCHMID. I don't know. Our cars are primarily other than staff

cars.

Mr. JONAS. What is a staff car?

Mr. SCHMID. Cars used to transport personnel from one office to another. Our cars are equipped with safety devices.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Our cars are special cars in that they are the most inexpensive units available.

Mr. JONAS. How much do you pay for your cars, Chevrolets, Fords, and Plymouths?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. $1,450.

Mr. JONAS. How do you figure they are cheaper than GSA?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. They are the same. They have no rear seat and the space is devoted to safety equipment of various sorts.

Mr. JONAS. Is that what you meant when you said they were not staff cars, Mr. Schmid?

Mr. SCHMID. Yes; they are two doors with no rear seat.

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Most of the GSA cars would be personnel carrying type vehicles.

Mr. JONAS. Do all your cars come without a rear seat?

Mr. HUTCHINSON. Most of them, and they are painted white with Interstate Commerce Commission, Bureau of Motor Carriers, printed on the side. This is an important identification to people we work with.

Mr. JONAS. What kind of equipment do they carry?