had been committed to the training school in the State. The studies. of the case made by this objective person was that only 1 or 2 of those cases would have needed to have had the training school experience or even have gotten into this extent of difficulty if this small rural logging community had some kind of a resource for that particular area. Now, they have been struggling to try to think through to what to do and have tried to get some resource people in to help.

One of these demonstration aspects of a project is here, 300 miles to 500 miles from a training school. A project which was within the framework of experience which that small county could eventually take over and handle would be a type of demonstration project to which we do not know the answer but at least it is something that would have merit in being tried as a demonstration project. Whether it be a school camp, or whatever combination, there is a need for a small grouping of not maybe more than 25 in terms of its size that could pattern a little after the Swedish plan of having it operated on a local level but it did need to have skilled direction and within the State there are not the people. The youth authority very generously loaned a person for a day but he cannot stay. It did need someone who could give overall direction to this type of a local program. That would be a type of demonstration project that we think would be very valuable and a tremendous saving to the State financially if successful.

Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Lamb, how many probation officers do we have in Oregon?

Mr. LAMB. We are in good shape. Every county in the State has a probation officer. Do not ask me the experience and qualifications. Mrs. GREEN. You mean in name?

Mr. LAMB. In name, and they are hiring the best people they can find but you cannot find people. In fact, they are drawing my staff and the juvenile court staff. You try to train people in this field and you lose them as fast as you train them. It is difficult to find and it is not salary. They are willing to pay a fair salary as salaries go, but there are not the people who can work in the field with the experience and training for it. I cannot tell you the exact number but, as compared to 10 years ago, it is at least a 500 percent increase. Every county now has an officer and is actively interested.

Nothing has been said here about judges either. With all due respect to our legal profession, the judges are very excellent people, trained in law, but in the juvenile field it would not hurt a bit if there was a little bit of the human behavior aspect of knowledge, even though they are doing a very nice job and are all interested in this.

Mr. ALLISON. Everybody approaches the legal profession with apology in the beginning. I do not understand that.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. As one lawyer, I do not apologize. I would like to direct a question to the panel, particularly to Dr. Linden, because of his suggestion of an intermediate institution. All our discussion here today has seemed to center on the treatment of the juvenile himself and yet you gentlemen yourselves have pointed out the broadness of this question and the terrible ramifications with which it deals: Slums, better schools, the family problem if it exists in the family, the police facet brought out by Captain Fox; and the point I am raising is that I do not know whether one particular approach to juvenile delinquency through the delinquent or through better police officers

is going to arrive at the ultimate answer and whether the solution is not of such broad social consequence that we are really just touching the fringes here today.

Mr. WRIGHT. Is not the answer to what you are raising there the fact that until we know a little better about some of these factors that cause delinquency and recognize that we probably have delinquent parents as well as we have delinquent children, that until we know some of these factors and can begin to point them out to the community so as to give the community some specific answers as to where their problems are coming from, we talk in rather vague phrases now? It is very hard to go into a community and convince them that they need to do all these things because, when a city council gets ready to vote some money and looks you in the face and says, "Can you say that if we do this it will cut down our delinquency load," you are backed up against the wall. You cannot say that. You may feel it and be sure of it but you have nothing documented by which you can say, "If you do these things you will improve your situation."

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. Mr. Delli Quardi, from Wisconsin, has a socially constructive pamphlet there which is distributed among communities to help correct the juvenile problem in that community. I think that is a very unusual approach. It is new to me. How common is it throughout the States?

Mr. WRIGHT. We have 12 men on the youth authority staff who spend 100 percent of their time in this field.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. Do you have printed forms to give out?

Mr. WRIGHT. They have made surveys of every county in the State and in about 200 of the 300 incorporated cities. These surveys take from 4 weeks to 6 weeks.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. That was another reason I directed my question before to Dr. Linden as to the bibliography on this. I wonder if you have any suggestions as to particular papers or studies that have been made that would be constructive to people like ourselves?

Mr. WRIGHT. There are so many. We just compiled a bibliography of 400 books each of which we feel is best in a particular phase of the field.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. Right. That is why I asked Dr. Linden whether he had a suggestion as to one that would cohesively pull them together. He recommended the one study of some 23 papers. I would be very interested in that.

Mr. ALLISON. Mr. Chairman, there is one research project that relates to the legal profession and remotely may be to this subject here. It is in connection with the juvenile court. I should like to throw it out for consideration. That is, what role does a lawyer have in the juvenile court setup under the philosophy of the juvenile court that prevails now? I do know that such a project has been proposed by the Voluntary Defender Committee of Philadelphia by Herman Pollock. His committee through him made a request for money from the National Legal Aid Association to help them conduct this study to see whether or not the presence of an attorney was necessary; what would be the effect upon an individual who was in the juvenile court and had no attorney where sometimes the legal defenses in the matter of evidence are not available in this more or less informal hearing; what effect that had upon his attitude toward the courts and law enforce

ment officers and justice generally. The project is pretty well outlined but there is no money for it. That might relate somewhat directly to the subject under consideration.

Dr. LINDEN. Mr. Chairman, I think that Congressman Wainwright touched a really crucial issue in this whole business. In the field of mental illness prevention and conservation of mental health we find that the most difficult thing of all in our programs is to reach the people who apparently need to be reached. The very same factors prevail as far as we are able to see that obtain for delinquency. I do not think the pamphlet or movie approaches have been as effective in changing personalities; nor has anything short of sitting with people in small or large groups and dealing with them over long periods of time. That is a very difficult thing to set up.

One of the most important products, I think, of a bill of this kind, should this become an act and become a national program, would be that somebody somewhere in the United States would find a way or the ways to get to the people who need this help, the broken home, the alcoholic father, the unwed mother, and that sort of thing; the individuals who do not know seek our assistance and often are extremely hostile toward the society that wants to help them.

Mr. ELLIOTT. They are uncommunicative.

Dr. LINDEN. That is right.

Mr. McGOVERN. Mr. Chairman, I am wondering if any members of the panel might have suggestions that they would care to make as to how the bills that are before us can be improved.

Dr. LINDEN. More money.

Mrs. GREEN. I would like to ask two other questions. We had a Mr. Coughlan down from Massachusetts the other day who, I thought, gave some excellent testimony before the committee. He spoke of one institution they had in Massachusetts for the youngsters from 7 to 10 or 12. Those obviously are very expensive. Has any effort ever been made to form an interstate compact so that you might have special institutions for the very young offender or for some of the dope users or for other special cases, or do you all have so many problems within your own State?

Dr. LINDEN. The only interstate compact we have is on the return of patients.

Mr. LAMB. There has been a great deal of study in the Northwest area because of the isolation problem, but the real problem is the removal of the child or individual so far from his home situation and this kind of child you do not work with in large groups. At least that is the present thinking. You have to keep the groups small.

Mrs. GREEN. He described some of these 7-, 8-, and 9-year-old youngsters sentenced by the court and in some cases carried out screaming. It seems to me that it is much more important to be sure that such a youngster is assigned to an institution designed especially for his age and type of case than to be concerned about how far away he was. When you are thinking of transportation, if you are going to visit a child, does it make any difference whether you go 200 miles to an institution not equipped to care for him, or 500 miles to one that is? Mr. LAMB. Seattle has one and they have a big waiting list. There are a number of these agencies in the Northwest but all of them are very small in capacity. The one or two I mentioned have only 25 as a total population in the group, and that is about the maximum

they can absorb. Some are a little higher but the numbers of children in these disturbed-home-institution situations are very small in population.

Mr. WRIGHT. We have one institution which has a correctional school in California that deals with the younger aged boys; that is the 8 to 12; but it takes a tremendous population to screen out the few that the courts are willing to send at that age. Courts are pretty hesitant to commit to a State correctional institution an 8-year-old boy. The problem has to be pretty severe and the community reaction to the problem has to be pretty severe. Most of these 8- and 9-year-old youngsters that we get are those who have killed one or both of their parents or several of the neighborhood children and it is necessary not only for their own protection but for the protection of the community to remove them from the community. The specialized-treatmnt institution for the youngster who may be emotionally disturbed at that age, of course, is something that can be handled in a very small school in small area and probably the surprising thing is that we get less parent visits below 14 years of age than we do between 14 and 16. When the parents have given up on an 8-year-old they are not apt to come and visit him even if he is in the school for 2 or 3 years. Dr. LINDEN. That is the kind of parent that gives up.

Mr. WRIGHT. That is right. If the youngster has committed so serious a crime or is so seriously disturbed as to permit the parent and the community and the judge to agree that he has to be removed from the community, you get probably no correspondence from the parents whatsoever.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Dr. Linden.

Dr. LINDEN. The question was asked, how the bill might be improved. I do not know whether this is improper, but it is an idea to stand in place of the notion that the Federal grant be linked to a State allocation or matched money. There is a provision in this bill for a council apparently to pass upon the validity of general programs and upon the administration of this entire act should it become a law. It seems to me that that would be an extremely overburdened group to pass upon research proposals coming from every State in the Union and from many educational institutions and police bodies and so on, and that rather than to link the money to State appropriations the administration of the act could be linked to the State administration; that is, that there be a counterpart council, perhaps a commission or council, under the governor in a State to sift_out the proposals coming from the State and going to the Federal Government in order to make the most valid recommendations to the greater council. In this way there would be a decentralization of this tremendous burden and I think it would be increasingly valid because the local council would know the local picture.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Dean Vasey.

Dr. VASEY. There is one alternative to the small group passing on all proposals. That is the use of the delegated responsibility to advisory groups. I have served in several of those groups. They are representative of a good many interests throughout the country and can act as advisers which certainly does lessen the burden on those making the decision. I would be just a little fearful of the conse

quences of prescribing a State structure for receiving funds. Would it be recommendation or mandate?

Dr. LINDEN. That would be recommendation.

Mrs. GREEN. You are not suggesting it for the receiving of funds, are you? You are suggesting it for screening projects to be recommended to the national advisers?

Dr. LINDEN. Not a group of Government officials but a group almost one for one of the people on the Government council.

Mr. WRIGHT. That will perhaps give you the protection you need providing as it does in your own bill and does not in the other bills for a mandatory reporting on the part of this advisory group specifically laying out some of the agencies that need to be consulted or represented on a mandatory reporting which then becomes a public record as against the permissive type of program which may get lost in the woods some place.

Mr. HIGGINS. Mr. Chairman, with reference to that, I would like to endorse Dr. Linden's idea. It seems to me that if we will remove screening of this from agencies that have administrative programs and place it in a group that is not involved in administration as such, we can more nearly get an objective appraisal of what a State should be doing in pilot or demonstration projects. I think of many States of which I have some knowledge where a particular agency will stress its own program but, if we have an independent group of citizens and professional people who are going to screen this, I think we get a more objective viewpoint. In our State our youth commission is just such a body. We are an advisory, research, community organization group. We do not have any direct services to children as such.

There are some other States that we know of that have commissions such as ours. If that provision were in a Federal bill I think you would remove the responsibility for recommending pilot projects directly from the administrative agencies. It would flow from this group to the Federal counterpart which would do some screening.

Mrs. GREEN. One of the bills calls for a single State agency and the other does not. You would oppose the single State agency?

Mr. WRIGHT. The requirement for a single State agency would probably be necessary if you were going to require any State matching funds. Again we have a multiplicity of organizations throughout the country. In some cases the department of social welfare is the State agency that has responsibility for this. In others it is the youth authority or the youth board. There are a number of different agencies and probably the only wording that you could use would be that agency responsible for delinquency and delinquency prevention work within the State.

Mrs. GREEN. Are you not running into danger if the money and projects are under the responsibility of the State welfare department or the State mental-health program if they have an ax to grind?

Mr. WRIGHT. You are going to have to have some State agency or department responsible for administering the money if you are going to require the State to match funds. An outright Federal grant would not call for that. Then you could deal with a private agency directly.

Mr. HIGGINS. I think that is something over and beyond the question of recommending projects. The actual funds could go to some other agency for accountability and handling but the setting up of