Mr. MARLETT. Yes. Dump energy is the energy which we have available, which is delivered to our customers only if we have it available and if they wish to take it, and only to replace fuel energy, in other words, oil or other means of steam production.

Senator ÖVERTON. Are you in a position to advise this committee what is the total consumption of electric power in Washington and Oregon at the present time by the private utilities and publicly owned utilities?

Mr. MARLETT. I did not bring those figures with me today, Mr.
Chairman. I would be glad to supply them for the record.
Senator OVRTON. I wish you would.

Mr. MARLETT. Excluding our own system?
Senator OVERTON. No. Including that.

Mr. MARLETT. You want the total for the whole system?
Senator OVERTON. Yes. I understand that it is 22,700.
Mr. MARLETT. To public agencies?

Senator OVERTON. Yes.

Mr. MARLETT. Yes. That is correct; for public agencies.
Senator OVERTON. All right.

(The figures requested are as follows:)

Kilowatt-hour sales of electric power year ended Dec. 31, 1941

'Puclic agencies not interconnected with the Bonneville syytem sold approximately 47, 801, 385 kilowatt-hours of electric power during the year ending December 31, 1941, none of which was for resale. 3 Estimated total sales for calendar 1942: 3,735,000,000 kilowatt-hours.

Kilowatt-hour sales of electric power year ended Dec. 31, 1941

NOTE (3).-Pacific Power & Light Co. shows peak demand by systems as follows:

NOTE (4).-Inland Power & Light Co. shows peak demand by plants as follows:

NOTE (5).-Mountain States Power Co. shows peak demand by districts as follows:

Mr. MARLETT. Did you ask for figures including industries and all other?

Senator OVERTON. All other. If you have those, just give us the total that is supplied by privately owned power plants in Oregon and Washington.

Mr. MARLETT. I have here the total installed capacity for the entire area that is, Washington and Oregon-from 1939 to date.

Senator OVERTON. Give us the last.

Mr MARLETT. For 1942 the installed capacity totaled 2,007,000 kilowatts.

Senator OVERTON. Is that private or all?

Mr. MARLETT. That is everything, including the Bonneville Administration.

Senator OVERTON. That is a total of 2,700,000?

Mr. Marlett. No. That is a total of 2,007,000 kilowatts.

Senator OVERTON. We will say 2,000,000 roughly. How much does Bonneville supply?

Mr. MARLETT. Bonneville's part of that is 626,400 kilowatts, or 31.2 percent.

Senator OVERTON. If this bill is enacted into law is it contemplated that the remaining 1,370,-odd thousand would be acquired by publi agencies and operated by public agencies ultimately? I do not mean at once. Is that the objective of this bill?

Mr. MARLETT. Well, the 2,000,000 kilowatts total installed capacity in Washington and Oregon also includes capacity now owned by public agencies, such as Tacoma and Seattle.

Senator OVERTON. But this bill does not contemplate acquisition of those generating plats. Oh, I beg your pardon.

Mr. MARLETT. The point I have is that in addition to the 600,000 kilowatts for Bonneville, there is some capacity now owned by Seattle, Tacoma, and other municipal agencies in the territory.

Senator OVERTON. Have you those figures?

Mr. MARLETT. I do not believe we have that break-down available. Senator BONE. When Tacoma's new installations are ready-it will not be in the immediate future, but they are working on it now— Tacoma will have somewhere in the neighborhood of 340,000 horsepower and about 231,000 kilowatts.

I can give you Seattle's.

Senator OVERTON. I would like the present.

Senator BONE. Tacoma now has in the neighborhood of 151,000 kilowatts capacity, or about 202,000 horsepower.

Senator OVERTON. I want kilowatts.

Senator BONE. It is about 151,000, as I recall.

Senator OVERTON. What is the other you started to give?

Senator BONE. I will have to dig up Seattle's. I have the latest manual here. It just came a day or two ago. They show their kilowatt-hour production.

Mr. MARLETT. I believe I have Seattle's figures here. They have 30,000 kilowatts of steam and 230,400 of hydro, or a total of 260,400 kilowatts.

Senator OVERTON. Now, what is the other one?

Mr. ANGELL. Are your figures the same-151,000?

Mr. MARLETT. Yes; that is correct.

Senator OVERTON. There is another one.

Mr. MARLETT. There are other municipal agencies which own generating capacity. The city of Centralia, the city of EugeneMr. ANGELL. McMinnville.

Mr. MARLETT. McMinnville, Ellensburg, Grays Harbor, and Cowlitz County P. U. D.'s. I do not have the details on that, but my guess is that their combined capacity would not exceed forty to fifty thousand kilowatts.

Senator OVERTON. Let us say 50,000. That would be 460,000. Then, if this bill were carried into effect, that would ultimately represent the absorption of about 1,000,000 kilowatt hours by the Columbia Power Administration?

Mr. MARLETT. One million kilowatts would be the approximate installed capacity of existing privately owned companies in that area, that is correct. Whether all of that would be acquired will depend, of course upon the wishes of the people in the area. We will not force public ownership on any of those company territories, but if the people in the area want us to assist them in acquiring the distribution properties, and we can fit the generating property into our system, we will be in a position to proceed with the acquisition, if this bill passes.

Mr. DONDERO. It is your opinion, however, that private utilities could not exist in a competitive way with public power which is produced in that area?

Mr. MARLETT. Ultimately I think that is true; yes, Congressman. Mr. DONDERO. One-half, then, of all the power produced in the State of Washington now is private enterprise?

Mr. MARLETT. That is approximately correct.

Mr. DONDERO. The rest consists of Bonneville, Grand Coulee, and municipally owned plants?

Mr. MARLETT. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. Is that figure for both Oregon and Washington? Mr. MARLETT. Both Oregon and Washington.

Mr. DONDERO. How does that apply or divide in Oregon?

Mr. MARLETT. The installed capacity in Oregon is less than in Washington.

Senator OVERTON. Let me interrupt you just a minute, because I have a telegram from the Puget Sound Power & Light Co. that I did not place in the record, which I should have placed in the record where the other telegrams are inserted, together with my reply to it. Would you like to hear what they have to say?

Senator GEORGE H. OVERTON,

Chairman, Senate Commerce Special Committee,

Washington, D. C.:

JUNE 12, 1942.

In view of all circumstances, including the proceedings now pending before the Securities and Exchange Commission under section 11 of the Holding Company Act, on which hearings commence June 17, we do not feel we are in a position to appear before your committee to either advocate or oppose passage of the proposed legislation. We appreciate, however, the opportunity you have extended us to do so and may wish to file written statement later. PUGET SOUND POWER & LIGHT CO.

My reply reads:

PUGET SOUND POWER & LIGHT Co., Seattle, Wash.:

JUNE 12, 1942.

Answering your telegram. Hearings on the Bonneville Grand Coulee bill began June 3 and it is our understanding that all private power companies and others in interest had received ample notice thereof through the press and otherwise. The subcommittee has concluded, however, to resume hearings at some date after June 19 of which resumption of hearings you will be notified in time if you desire to make an appearance before subcommittee.

JOHN H. OVERTON,

United States Senator, Chairman, Senate Commerce Special Committee. Senator BONE. It might be interesting to supply the committee with this information. I have referred to the Skagit development as having a million horsepower development ultimately. The Seattle Handbook indicates that that development, which is being rushed, will provide 1,120,000 horsepower, or 835,500 kilowatts on

a 40-percent load factor, which is a pretty good load factor. We have exceeded that in Tacoma now. Skagit will be a very fine plant. Mr. DONDERO. Maybe you can put that figure in later, Mr. Marlett. Let us approach it from another angle. Yesterday it was shown that out of a population of approximately 1,100,000 for the State of Oregon, only 156,000 have thus far availed themselves or expressed a wish to come under public utility rules and regulations. Is that a fair ratio of privately owned as against publicly owned power in that State?

Mr. MARLETT. Do you mean, do those figures represent the present sentiments of the people there?

Mr. DONDERO. Yes.

Mr. MARLETT. I do not know the details of the figures, but I think that is approximately correct as to the present situation.

Mr. DONDERO. It would be about 8 to 1. In other words, 85 percent thus far have either not expressed themselves or have expressed themselves as not willing to come under public power or public utility districts as against 15 percent that have, in the State of Oregon.

Mr. MARLETT. Of course, those figures are heavily weighted by the larger communities, like the city of Portland, and Salem, who have turned it down in local municipal elections, and I do not think they take into account the fact that there are areas which do want the power to be distributed by local distributing agencies. In other words, the heavy weighting of one or two or three large municipalities would give a very high ratio of opposition, as you might call it.

Mr. DONDERO. I am speaking of the elections. Out of the 32 elections only 11 have voiced by a majority vote-and I suppose that is the election law-that they are willing to come under public utility. Is that a fair ratio? That is about two-thirds against to one-third for.

Mr. MARLETT. Well, I would not say that that ratio had any significance for the future. That is a factor, I suppose, as far as the elections that have thus far been held are concerned.

Senator OVERTON. Now, you were going to give us those figures.

Mr. MARLETT. These figures are older figures. They go back to 1940. If the committee wishes, I could supply the latest figures we could get and put them into the record.

Senator OVERTON. I think 1940 will suffice. They cover what, now? Mr. MARLETT. This is generating capacity, privately owned, and publicly owned, in Washington and Oregon for 1940.

Senator OVERTON. You gave those figures just now, did you not? Mr. MARLETT. We did not have the detail as to the break-down between Washington and Oregon. I have the details of the break-down here and more accurate estimates on the public agencies.

The total capacity in Washington in 1940 was 1,018,000 kilowatts, both privately and publicly owned; and in Oregon, 518,000 kilowatts. Mr. ANGELL. Practically half?

Mr. MARLETT. Yes. The total municipally owned or publicly owned in Washington was 484,500 kilowatts; and in Oregon, 168,900, the balance being privately owned; totaling 533,500 in Washington and 349,300 in Oregon.

Now, in considering those figures, I think I should point out that the privately owned companies have not installed any substantially new capacity since the Bonneville and Coulee projects were started in