and the inability to determine whether a pupil has even met those low standards. Secondly, your criticism goes to the quality of teaching.

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then I believe you stated that even in schools and colleges, particularly graduate schools that have good standards, you found from your study of what you call the product, the graduates who work with you, although they ma ybe very proficient in specialties they do not have a proper background in science.

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir. This goes for many, but my personal experience is limited to the technical and natural science areas. And there are certain schools which you must definitely exclude from this generalized statement. For example, CalTech and MIT really produce very broadly educated people.

Senator COOPER. This is just a general conclusion you have made. I think we all know them well. You apply that to the humanities in the lower schools as well as the scientific studies?

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir.

SOCIAL DIFFERENCES

Senator COOPER. In your comparison of the European system you said those who did not meet certain standards and certain examinations were dropped, while in our American system students continue to move forward. I would ask you to consider that there is a difference in not only our system but our social strata in this country. We could consider that some of these students do not immediately meet these standards, but as they continue with new interests, they do acquire a degree of learning and education and they do fit into certain fields in our country. What would you propose to do? How would you reconcile those two ideas; the one idea that we must keep high standards and I think it is a necessary idea, and the idea that those who meet those standards must know it; and the other idea in this country that all of our people should have an opportunity at least to acquire more knowledge. How would you meet that?

INTERESTS OF NATIONAL DEFENSE

Dr. VON BRAUN. I am now speaking from the point of view of national defense. Because I believe that there is a certain conflict of interest.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Dr. VON BRAUN. Maybe it is in the interest of the population at large, that everybody should have a chance to go through high school and college no matter how talented he really is. But the interests of national defense may be a little bit different in this area. I would say what our defense industries in this country need more than anything else is more bright, hard-working, devoted topnotch people, and I think they would even want them at the price of reducing the total number of people who went to college.

Percentagewise, the United States has more college educated people than any other country in the world.

But I do not believe that if the total number of college-educated people in the United States were dropped by 10 percent, that this

would affect our defenses very greatly. If instead we could get a few thousand additional, brilliant physicists with a good broad background in the natural sciences and humanities, it would probably do our defenses more good.

AMOUNT OF SCHOLARSHIP GRANT

Senator COOPER. This question I am going to ask you does not directly bear on this point, but I thought I would ask you: scholarship programs are being suggested. Is it your belief that a scholarship program should involve such a sum of money that would pay for all of the needs of a student, provide for his tuition and books and something else, but should leave some effort or initiative on the part of the gifted student who might receive a scholarship?

Dr. VON BRAUN. I would say, the scholarship should carry him through his studies, should take care of his subsistence, and in addition, of course, what he needs for the books, tuition fees, and so forth. He should not be forced to make extra money by washing dishes.

In addition to scholarships, certain prizes should be given for outstanding performance. This would be an additional incentive.

Senator COOPER. I know the purpose of this hearing is not to get anything other than the relationship of education to defense and to our general educational problems, but you said you dealt with the product of our educational system.

May I just ask this question: In your operation, do you have any difficulty in securing men for your work?

SHORTAGE OF SCIENTISTS WITH BROAD BACKGROUND

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir. I would say there are no difficulties in getting specialists with a relatively narrow background. for example, high frequency engineers. However, we always have difficulty in obtaining people with a broad knowledge in several fields so that they could coordinate across several different areas of activity.

Senator COOPER. You have difficulty in holding either specialists or these more broadly educated people once you secure them?

Dr. VON BRAUN. This is difficult, too. Excellent people are just short in supply.

I think the entire question of education has a lot to do with the economical situation, too.

I have made the rather startling observation that perhaps the most fertile vintage of American scientists graduated from universities during the depression years. They just had to hang on. They had to work harder than ever in order to qualify for a job. Even a Ph.D. called himself fortunate if he could stay on as an assistant at the university for a small salary, and a few more years for postgraduate studies.

I think a statistical analysis would probably prove my contention that of the best natural scientists this country has today are from that vintage.

I am sorry to say that, but it must have something to do with the old question of "challenge and response." If things are really tough a man must work. He knows he is washed out if he flunks, and he works harder. It is as simple as that.

SHORTAGE OF BASIC RESEARCH PERSONNEL

Senator COOPER. Is it true that because of these factors in our educational system that you described there is a shortage of those people in the country who can do what you call basic research as contrasted with applied research and applied engineering?

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir. Basic research calls for a matured, academic mind and there is a definite shortage of physicists and mathematicians who have spent a number of years in postgraduate studies. This is probably because of the ever-present temptation in a booming economy to take a well paying job in industry. This temptation is so great these days that it takes superhuman effort to resist it and not accept such a job.

Senator COOPER. I know with all the talk in the country about the security crisis, would you be willing to comment on another crisis, the educational crisis, which if not corrected will mean that the results will lead to a further deepening of not only a military crisis but a crisis later in scientific and educational fields and all other phases of our society unless these educational deficiencies are corrected?

Dr. VON BRAUN. I am convinced of that, sir. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would like to say again that I thank you. I think you have not only contributed to science in this country but you have made a good analysis of the defects in our educational system.

SPECIAL SCHOOLS

The CHAIRMAN. I have been very much interested in the discussion between you and Senator Cooper, Senator Allott, and Senator Smith on the matter of the gifted child, the child who has the capacity to go forward and accomplish more than other children. Then you spoke about Cal Tech and MIT and said that they were such outstanding schools that you could not find any schools in the world any better than those two schools.

Dr. VON BRAUN. Right,

The CHAIRMAN. I realize I am going to ask you a very difficult question and one that requires considerable thought and consideration. I wonder if you have given thought at all to whether there ought to be special schools, high schools, where more gifted children can go instead of having to move along in the stream with the average children, where they can go forward more expeditiously and perhaps get into their subjects more deeply and more profoundly than they can if they just go to the normal secondary school.

Dr. VON BRAUN. Sir, several European countries have precisely that system. I do not know at what age they make the cut. It probably differs. I would say generally between the age of 9 and 12 they sift the more gifted and able and hard-working children from the below average and actually put the children into two channels. There are two separate high school systems, one for more talented, more able, more gifted children; and the other for the average or lower than average children.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have that system in Germany when you were in school there?

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You had that?

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir. The lower grade high schools in Germany are called "Mittelschule" or "Realschule"; the higher grade high schools are called "Gymnasium" if they place emphasis on Latin, Greek, and History; and they are called "Ober-Realschule" if they concentrate on mathematics, physics, chemistry, and modern languages.

It is important to remember that there is always a possibility in this double high-school system, for a child to make a switch to the higher type of school. Some children are late in their development and they may not make the grade when the examination is given, but 2 years later they may all of a sudden pull a surprise and catch up the lost time again. They can then still transfer into that advanced school system although it becomes more difficult the older they are. This is the way it is being done in Germany. I know things are similar in England. I think it is also done in France.

OUTER SPACE

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, you spoke about outer space. I am not speaking about one satellite or one rocket or one missile in outer space. I am speaking about the whole field, I might say, the world of outer space. How important do you feel it is for us to move with expedition and determination into outer space? As I said, I am not thinking in terms of any one satellite. I am thinking in terms of the whole field of what may be there so far as life on this planet is concerned, so far as our lives and those of our children and our children's children are concerned.

Dr. VON BRAUN. Sir, I believe that today's challenge of outer space is in a way comparable with the challenge of the oceans shortly after the compass was discovered. It became technically possible then to cross an ocean because one could navigate without seeing land. Toward the end of the Middle Ages this challenge was accepted by practically all seafaring nations. They started exploring the world and as a result of those exploratory trips they founded colonies and to protect the colonies and the sealanes leading to them they built

navies.

Then, national drives for the control of the seas developed which produced the Spanish Armada and the British Navy and so forth.

I think we are in a comparable situation today. The means to navigate outer space have been invented. Whoever will first raise his flag on the moon first will claim ownership of the moon. At least he will challenge any Johnny-come-lately to the fact that he was on the moon first. The same will go for Mars and all the rest.

What practical importance these first exploratory trips will have is very hard to predict. I think the moon, in a way, is something like Antarctica. Right now, nobody knows exactly what it is good for and yet everybody has a little colony there and is doing research in that area. One fine day somebody will probably discover something down there and then suddenly real estate ownership will become a very hot issue.

I think this outer space issue is simply too big, to vast, too important, to sit idly by when a country like Soviet Russia, in full view of the population of the entire earth, is making a determined effort to control the space around us.

SPACE SUPERIORITY

I think 10 to 15 years from now there will be space weapons that will be just as vital militarily as air superiority is today. In other words, space superiority will then have replaced air superiority.

Since the Russians admittedly plan to control the world and convert it to communism, they obviously will make every attempt not only to shoot sputniks into outer space, but also to prepare the way for man himself to go into outer space. They only too obviously envision the whole broad scope of exploratory and scientific space flight and military space control. I think if we sit idly by and do nothing in this area we will find ourselves in an extremely difficult if not hopeless situation a decade from now.

The CHAIRMAN. When I first came to Congress many years ago, we were talking and thinking then in terms of airpower. The experts spoke of a third dimension. We had land and water, as you suggested, the conquest of the oceans. The third dimension was air. What you are saying is that there will be a fourth dimension, that we must move into it and that we must make sure we know whatever is out there and are in the right position. Is that right?

COMPARISON WITH FREEDOM OF THE SEAS

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir.

I do not want to be misunderstood here, though. I am not proposing to go into outer space solely with military objectives. The first task out there is exploration. But to protect this exploratory work and its expected results, we need a military capability in space. It is very much like with the control of the seas. Even if you subscribe to the principle of the freedom of the seas, as it exists today, you have to have a navy that is able to enforce that principle against potential raiders and pirates. You need that navy even if you do not have the ambition yourself to exert control of the seas.

With regard to the fundamental principle of freedom of outer space, if we do not have a navy in space, so to speak, to back it up, then anyone who has ships out there can assume unchallenged control. It would be very shortsighted for us to let this happen.

You frequently read in the papers these days that nobody has a very clear concept yet of what space warfare actually may look like, what technical forms it would take, and how exactly you could control the earth from outer space, as you can with bombing aircraft today. Such statements are partly correct. The exact technical forms and many of the attending details have not been found yet, although many conceivable methods and weapons systems are already being studied on

paper.

However, I think nobody who is familiar with these studies will deny that it is not a question of whether it can be done at all, but that it is only a question of how to do it best. I think it would be utterly shortsighted and dangerous for us to say that since we do not understand the detailed ramifications of the concept of space warfare, or shall we say the best military use of space flight, we should not bother with it. It is this kind of thinking that led us into the sputnik tragedy. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, we should move out? Dr. VON BRAUN. Move out there, yes.