EDUCATION FOR SCIENTISTS OF VARYING ABILITIES

Senator ALLOTT. Dr. Rabi, is it not important that we in this discussion not forget that we are not just aiming at the education of a very, very select group? I therefore ask you this question: Is it not room there at various levels of our scientific, industrial, and defense and development of everything else, for all kinds of scientists according to their abilities? Is it not just for the exceedingly brilliant ones, but for all of those who have been able to acquire from what we might term a mediocre proficiency, up through an excellent and up through a superior and up through the genius?

Dr. RABI. I could not agree with you more. I think that it is the great discovery and achievement of the United States, that we have done just that. I remember that during the war, the British had a much more selective system: 1 Britisher might be equal to 3 Americans, but we had 9.

It was just because we had done exactly what you say. We had the top people and we had them at varying grades. Our educational system is different from the European. We do take care of that, and we train students at different levels. I think it is a very important source of American strength that we did exactly the sort of thing you say. Senator ALLOTT. I thought you were aiming at that in the way you framed your reward effort in the schools. It seems to me that this is a very important point, at this stage of discussion and development, that we remember that we are not just trying to sift out a few genuises and see that they are taken care of, but that there is room for this whole graduation of scientists and mathematicians in our system.

FAULT NOT WITH EDUCATORS ALONE

Now, the second thing is this: Is it not important in our evaluation of this at the beginning of these hearings, we are somewhat prone, and I am somewhat prone to criticize various facets of our educational system, that we don't hang another yoke, or a bigger yoke around a group of people who are already pretty well burdened and blame this all on the teachers and the educators, but rather that we have to assume that this is the joint product of not only educators, but a joint product of our evolution and it is a joint product of fathers and mothers who sit by and put up with this thing and take it and haven't done anything about it.

Dr. RABI. I think that you are absolutely right, that the fault does not rest with the teachers alone, and it is the development in the United States which has occurred in the last few decades. It is well known that as people become wealthier, they try to take life more easily.

Quite naturally, it is natural for us to relax. As I say, we are facing a very vigorous competitor, and we have to put on our running shoes and start running again.

INSUFFICIENT TIME DEVOTED TO TRUE CULTURE

Senator ALLOTT. Relative to one of the situations which Doctor DuBridge mentioned, and this was the division of the amounts of study in which he pointed out-it perhaps might have been before

you came in that science and mathematics themselves are a part of a broad education, if we intended to eliminate some of the so-called culture subjects, is it not a fact that we could probably provide our people actually with a much broader cultural education and include in that science and mathematics?

Specificially what I am saying-perhaps I have gone around the barn a little bit is that there are too many things that are in schools which come under the general classification of culture and do not leave time for the study of science, mathematics, and the true cultural subject.

They eliminate, for example, an opportunity, which we can start very easily in this country, of teaching foreign languages to students in grade schools, which is something I personally believe should have been commenced on a broader scale many years ago.

We have so many things in all grades of schools that tie up children's time that it is almost impossible for them to devote their time to achievement in these fields in which we are particularly interested.

Would you care to comment on that?

HIGH SCHOOL LEARNING

Dr. RABI. Sir, I do not want to go too far-I have already gone too far perhaps beyond my own competence. My teaching career has been chiefly in graduate courses, except for a few years when I taught undergraduate courses in college, so I cannot from experience say much about what happens in the elementary schools and in the high

schools.

However, in discussions with friends of mine who have been in the high schools, when they have asked me what is the best preparation for future scientists, I would say, "Teach him English so that he can really write a paragraph and understand what he reads; teach him a couple of foreign languages; give him some history, and you may give him some science or not. We are well prepared to take care of that later on. If you give him the fundamental tools of a cultivated man and he uses his language; if he knows something of its literature; if he knows his mathematics, which is the language of science; if he knows history; if he knows something about the world in which he lives and its past, I will be very pleased to take him after that. But we would like to have him know it quite well rather than just be entertained by it."

Senator ALLOTT. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Thurmond.

Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to both this distinguished gentlemen, Dr. Rabi, and Dr. DuBridge, for giving us the benefit of their

views.

NEED FOR TECHNICIANS

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir.

Doctor, I was very much interested in Senator Allott's observation about our having to stimulate and encourage not only what we might call the top men, the scientists at the top, but also those among a larger group. That brings to my mind the technicians. In addition

to the top scientists we have to have a very considerable number of technicians.

I am sure that is what Senator Allott is talking about, these men down the line, so to speak.

Dr. RABI. Yes, sir.

In addition to the chiefs you need the Indians.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

In addition to the director and assistant director, we need the men down the line, is that right?

Dr. RABI. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We have to have a large number of them, do we not?

Dr. RABI. Yes, sir. I think it has been such a great achievement of our educational system that they have been able to train people

of all levels.

We have schools of the quality of California Tech of which Dr. DuBridge is president. Then we have schools that are very large and can take groups of more average ability.

The CHAIRMAN. We must also seek to stimulate students of average ability, those who must become the technicians we need, is that right? Dr. RABI. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, we spoke of Dr. DuBridge's thoughtprovoking presentation this morning. May I say that you also provoked our thinking here this morning.

You have brought us some most helpful information. You have been very fine, and we are deeply grateful to you. We certainly appreciate it very, very much. Thank you.

Dr. RABI. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. von Braun, will you be able to be with us this afternoon at 2:15?

Dr. VON BRAUN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand in recess until 2:15, at which time Dr. Wernher von Braun, the Director of the Development Operations Division of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency, will be our witness.

We will stand in recess until 2:15.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon the committee recessed to reconvene at 2:15 p. m., the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Present: Senators Hill (presiding), Smith, Allott, and Cooper. The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will kindly come to order.

Dr. von Braun, we are very happy to have you here.

I believe, sir, you were born in Germany in 1912. You received your doctor of philosophy degree in physics from the University of Berlin in 1934. In 1937, you became technical director of the Peenemünde rocket center. You remained there until the closing months of World War II, when you and your colleagues voluntarily decided to turn over your research information and valuable technical data to the West.

You came to the United States in September, 1945. You first worked on high altitude firings of V-2 rockets at the White Sands Proving Ground. Later you became Project Director at Fort Bliss, Tex., which employed many of your former colleagues in Germany.

Since April 1950 you have been in Huntsville, Ala. You were in charge of guided-missile development at Redstone Arsenal, and later transferred to the newly activated Army Ballistic Missile Agency in February, 1956.

You are affiliated with many scientific societies, and published numerous papers and books, many of them on space travel, and have assisted in the production of motion pictures on this same subject of space travel.

At the age of 18, you joined the German Society for Space Travel, and since that time you have worked in this field.

Your present work is with the weaponization of the Redstone ballistic missile and the development of the Jupiter intermediate range ballistic missile. As such, you direct the work of nine laboratories, a research projects office, and a technical liaison office.

On April 14, 1955, you became a citizen of the United States.

Doctor, we appreciate your being here and happy to have you. You were at the hearings this morning and you heard the testimony. You know how we proceeded. We would be delighted to have you proceed in your own way and make your own presentation.

STATEMENT OF WERNHER VON BRAUN, DIRECTOR, DEVELOPMENT OPERATIONS DIVISION, ARMY BALLISTIC MISSILE AGENCY, HUNTSVILLE, ALA.

Dr. VON BRAUN. At the beginning I would like to say that I feel I am kind of handicapped after the distinguished scholars, Dr. DuBridge and Dr. Rabi have given their opinions to you. I have never been an educator, so I have no experience in the field of education. What I can say here is based only on the visible results, the "products" of education, and on my personal dealings with scientists and engineers who come from American universities and colleges and technical institutions. My opinions are limited to what I learned and observed from these contacts.

In addition, I hear a little bit about schools through my own children.

These are my sole sources of information.

I am very well aware of the great danger of making sweeping generalizations, and whenever you feel that I am carried away too far, please consider my limited knowledge of the field.

You sent to me a number of questions which I should like to read first.

QUESTIONS TO BE DISCUSSED

The first question involves the "Relationship of education, especially in science, to national defense in the present scientific age."

The second question involves "Deficiencies in American education as related to national defense."

The third involves "Policies and programs which the American people should encourage in education at all levels."

The last question: "Any other topic you consider worth discussing related to the general question of science and education for national defense."

With your permission, I would like to break down my statements or my answers into three general categories.

In view of my European background, I thought you might be interested in certain observations I have made on the most noted differences in the European educational system versus the United States system. I will endeavor to present these comparisons in such a fashion that I do not express an opinion on which is the better way, because this would be presumptuous. I will rather try to simply emphasize the differences.

Secondly, I would like to make a few personal suggestions as to what I think would be advisable to do in view of our present national predicament.

Thirdly, I would like to make a few general observations as to how science works, and what makes a scientist tick.

EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN EDUCATION COMPARED

In my opinion, the greatest and most fundamental difference between the American school system, and this goes for elementary schools, high schools, colleges, and even universities, and the European system, lies in the fact that in the United States there is more emphasis on training and graduating as many people as possible, regardless of their talent and their ability; whereas in Europe there is more emphasis on quality, even if this means that they wash out lots of students on their way up. In the United States a degree or a certificate confirms, in essence, that a child or a young man or woman has attended the necessary classes and courses. A degree or a certificate in Europe, I believe, simply means more. It means that he or she has been raked over the coals and thoroughly grilled, that he had to show not only his potential ability but his factual knowledge and his ability in solving certain tasks.

I think this goes quite generally for most European teaching institutions. There is a lot more ruthlessness over there in just washing out the less competent. It is, you might say, a survival-of-the-fittesttype of training: whoever does not live up to the standards is simply eliminated.

There is much more screening and sifting in Europe, and the less able will be dropped from further and higher training with a lot less regard to their own personal interests.

Thus the European school systems, particularly the higher schools of learning such as colleges and universities, are loaded with much less ballast in the sense that they have to cope with much fewer students of dubious ability. Nobody will ever be admitted to a European university or technical high school who has not passed a number of very stringent examinations previously. As a result, the teachers of those schools simply need not bother with the less gifted.