emergency in the scientific and mathematical area. Is that 10 percent? Is its overall need 20 percent or 60 percent? What is your guess? Mr. CARR. It is a matter of judgment which involves knowledge of our scientific and military potential and other things that I do not possess and some probably only this committee and very few other people would have. But I would say this, that you certainly need a very substantial quick influx in graduate schools. If it be true that we have to have a quick spurt, of engineers and scientists, then we need scholarships and fellowships quickly and in substantial amount. I don't think this is the kind of thing that can be dashed off by asking some business concern to give us 3 scholarships at $500 a piece for a promising freshman. That kind of business does not get us anywhere. Senator MCNAMARA. So you are reluctant to pick a figure? COST PER CLASSROOM Senator MCNAMARA. Now, you use a figure here in your statement, the amount required to finance 83,000 classrooms and you use a figure of $40,000 for each classroom. Now, the rule of thumb which you have been using in the past is that classroom construction costs about $1,000 per pupil. Somebody might imply from your $40,000 figure that you are planning classrooms of 40 pupils? Mr. CARR. That is not the intent. Senator MCNAMARA. Then have you gotten away from this $1,000 per pupil cost of construction? Mr. CARR. The $40,000 includes the site. Senator MCNAMARA. I understand that. That is indicated by your footnote. And that brings you to approximately $1,000 per pupil for the regular classroom cost? Mr. CARR. Approximately, if costs do not go up any more. Senator MCNAMARA. You make no reference to class sizes in your presentation here. Do you visualize that making available $25 per pupil would encourage the reduction in class size? Mr. CARR. Yes, it would. AVERAGE CLASS SIZE Senator MCNAMARA. What is the average class size in this country right now? Mr. CARR. The pupil-teacher ratio is 1 for 27. Senator MCNAMARA. Now you are talking about pupil-teacher ratio. And that involves a lot of things beside class size because you get into how many are on the administrative end and all that. What is the average class size approximately? Do you have the figure? Mr. CARR. We do not have such a figure. It would be meaningless, because you run into rural schools of 3, 5, 10 pupils. Senator MCNAMARA. Do you have a recommendation for a ceiling on class size? Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; not more than 30. Senator MCNAMARA. There are many communities that have many more than 30? Mr. CARR. Oh, very many. The testimony contains an estimate of the number involved. PUPIL-TEACHER RATIO IN RUSSIA Senator MCNAMARA. Now, I read recently some figures released by the State Department, I believe, that gave some figures as to the class size in the secondary and primary schools in Russia. Do you have those figures? Mr. CARR. That, also, I believe, is the pupil-teacher ratio, and I have seen the figures. Senator MCNAMARA. What was that figure? Mr. CARR. 17. Senator MCNAMARA. Against our 30 to 35? Mr. CARR. Yes. Senator MCNAMARA. Is not this probably a factor in the consideration of the strides that they have made; that they have, perhaps, less pupils per teacher than we have in this country? Mr. CARR. There is no doubt that individualized attention and individualized drive is important. Senator MCNAMARA. But this is astonishing, to me, that they have fewer pupils per teacher in Russia. Maybe this is largely a factor in their astonishing progress. Mr. CARR. I dislike, as an American, to admit they have done that well, but I am afraid we must. Senator MCNAMARA. I don't think we have emphasized this enough. I think you did a great job on demonstrating this to our chairman. However, he did not seem to be convinced that you were helping this disparity between the rich States and the poor States. I think the visual education you gave with the penny was tremendous. It certainly would help to reduce the disparity between the rich States and the poor States. That has always been my philosophy, although I have never expressed it quite as well as you did there. EXPULSION OF PROBLEM CHILDREN I suppose you are watching with some interest what is happening in the New York schools, where they come to the conclusion that they have to be tough not only with the curriculum but also with the conduct of the child in the class, and in some cases expelling them in large numbers. Don't you think that we have become soft in that area, too? I think that too often we have let one child in a class disturb the whole class when we should really have expelled him. Thereafter, that child should not be a problem of the educator but rather a problem for social agencies or society in general. Don't you think we ought to have more of that kind of thing in the classroom? Mr. CARR. Sir, if I were a public-school administrator today, I would think a long, long time before I expelled completely from the high-school system any American child and just say I can't help him any more. Now, I think I would have to come to that conclusion in some cases, but, believe me, I would think a long while. I would insist night and day that this child must be removed from situations where he can harm other children, but that we are not going to give up on him. We should have special schools for him, residential schools-whatever it takes to save that child, I want him to have. And the expelling which throws him into the hands of police, it seems to me, does not really solve the problem. PROBLEM FOR SOCIETY Senator MCNAMARA. I am going to say to you that this is probably the only thing that you and I are going to disagree on. I think when 1 child out of 33 or 34 is holding back the entire class, just by his misconduct, we have a problem that is not an educational problem but a problem for other than educators. When the educators take on all the problems of society, our educational system is not going to function as well as it would if they stick to education. Mr. CARR. I agree with you there. I want that child out of the class where he will do harm to the others, but I want to try to have another special class for him. Senator MCNAMARA. We have been looking at this problem now for 15 years. Constantly it is becoming worse rather than better. I think the educators are taking on too many of the real problems of society. You mentioned in your statement the Research Division estimates of the average salary and so on. These were national averages, of course, and you wind up with $4,500? Mr. CARR. Yes, sir. Senator MCNAMARA. Now you say in your statement persons who have faith and confidence in the American tradition of State and local control of education find no difficulty in supporting this proposal. FEDERAL AID TO STATES I think you recognize that this has been one of the things that the opponents to Federal aid to education have made so much of. Doesn't this bill, this legislation that you are supporting here, visualize that Federal aid will stop at the statehouse, and this money will be distributed through the existing channels to the various localities? Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; it does. Senator MCNAMARA. You do not spell it out that way, but don't you actually stop this Federal aid at the statehouse so there could not be any interference with the local school curriculum? Mr. CARR. There would be no direct relationship whatever between the local school board and the National Government. Senator MCNAMARA. I think we ought to say that this aid will stop at the State level in so many words. I don't want to take any more time. The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to have a short recess and come back. Senator MCNAMARA. No: I do not wish any more time. Thank you. I want to congratulate you on your fine statement here, and I agree with it wholeheartedly, and I thank you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, we certainly want to thank you for your presence this morning, for your most thoughtful, able, and fine pres entation. The committee will meet tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. Our witness will be from the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Dr. Laurence H. Snyder, chairman of the board of directors, and dean of the Graduate School of the University of Oklahoma, accompanied by Dr. Dael Wolfle, executive officer, and Dr. John Mayor, educational director. The committee now stands in recess until 10 o'clock in the morning. (Whereupon, at 1:20 p. m., the hearing was adjourned until 10 a. m., Friday, February 21, 1958). SCIENCE AND EDUCATION FOR NATIONAL DEFENSE FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1958 UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE, Washington, D. C. The committee met at 10:10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the Old Supreme Court Chamber, the Capitol, Senator Lister Hill (chairman) presiding. Present: Senators Hill (presiding), Murray, Yarborough, Smith, and Allott. Also present: Senator Monroney. Committee staff members present: Roy E. James, assistant chief clerk; John S. Forsythe, general counsel; William G. Reidy and Michael J. Bernstein, professional staff members. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. We are very happy this morning to have with us our good friend and distinguished colleague, Senator Mike Monroney, of Oklahoma. Senator, we always welcome you to this committee. You are always most helpful and very fine when you come. We are delighted to have you with us this morning. We are proud and happy to have you present our witnesses this morning. PRESENTATION OF WITNESSES Senator MONRONEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity of being here to present a very distinguished Oklahoman and a very distinguished man of science. It is well known that Oklahoma has been the first ranking university in football through the years, but very few people realize the academic distinctions that we have had in the past with such men as the witness that I bring today. Permit me 1 second to thank this committee for the wonderful staff work, and the wonderful work of its members, in preparing these bills which are before you. It is thrilling indeed to find this great committee working to help overcome the lag in our academic pursuits. The CHAIRMAN. Senator, you will recall, of course-you are too modest to say that you are 1 of the cosponsors of 1 of the principal bills here. Senator MONRONEY. We are greatly honored that the committee is going to consider our efforts and we know that when the committee has reported a bill after long and careful hearings, it will be a very encouraging bill indeed for the future of American education. |