It all costs money. I do not feel that we have the right to continue to look upon the educational needs of America on a so-called geographical departmentalized line. You can still maintain your democratic system and give to those school districts that need it the funds to find out where these uncut jewels are to prevent their being wasted.

DEMOCRACY AND UNIFORMITY

The last point I will make, and you can make any observation you want, is that I think we also need to watch out in our American education, and I think our administrators need to watch out for it, for the need to stand up against the public who do not always understand this. I am glad Senator McNamara raised the question that the educators do not have a greater responsibility than they are feeling to help dispel some false political implication in this country about the role of the teacher in our democratic life. We had better watch out for the notion that uniformity means democratic education, the idea that all these students have to have is a uniform treatment in an educational institution, whether it is a grade school or a high school or college.

All we have to do is look at our draft system. There would not be very many who would be willing to stand out in this country against the application of the principle of the doctrine of uniformity of the American draft system, and the result is we have wasted tremendous brainpower on our draft law and weakened our country as the result of it.

For example, you got a great engineering mind doing KP duty some place.

Democracy does not mean uniformity. This needs to be recognized in the educational field, too.

I did not mean to make a speech here, Doctor, but it is your fault because you raised some points that I think we ought to meet headon in this so-called crisis in American education. When I say "crisis," I do not deprecate our present system, because I think that the time has come when a few politicians ought to stand up on their hind legs and give to the American educators the credit that is due them. I get a little weary of seeing the American teacher depreciated. The American teacher is doing a magnificent job in the face of great handicaps that the American politicians have thrown in their way. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Thurmond?

OPPOSITION TO FEDERAL AID

Senator THURMOND. I do not have any question. My distinguished friend from Oregon made an observation, and I might make an observation, too.

I think the distinguished Senator from Oregon and I have the same concept as to the importance of education. As a former schoolteacher and school superintendent, I think the hope of this country lies more in education than in anything else.

I feel, however, that education is a local and a State responsibility. I think it is essential that that be the case. Furthermore, I know of no constitutional authority for general Federal aid to education. Therefore, I am opposed to giving Federal aid to education.

I feel that every step possible should be taken to encourage the States and the political subdivisions of the States to meet their responsibilities, but I am confident if the Federal Government enters the field of education, gives Federal aid to education, it is going to destroy the initiative.

I believe you stated we had to be careful of that.

I think it is entirely important that we proceed along that_line rather than have Federal aid enter the field of education generally. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, again we want to thank you for your magnificent presentation here this morning, and for the very fine and statesmanlike manner in which you have made your presentation and answered the many questions that have been asked you today by the committee.

The very fact that so many questions were asked you, the very fact that our good friend, Senator Morse, made what he called an observation, that others might think took a little longer than an observation, testifies to the merit of your presentation and to the inspiration that you gave the members of this committee, as well as to the information or the knowledge that you gave us.

We are most grateful to you.

We will send you a transcript of the proceeding here this morning and we will ask you to go over that transcript and correct any errors that you might find in it. I am not speaking about any errors you might have made, Doctor; I mean that might have been made in taking down your statements or your answers. If you see fit to make any additions to the statement, if you feel you would like to enlarge on it a little, we would like to have you do that.

Dr. BRONK. There is one thing Senator Morse said that I would like to amplify here and now, and that is what he said about uniformity. I have been thinking recently about this matter, and it has occurred to me that the people whom we remember in our history, the ones who stand out and whom we admire, were not uniform average people who followed a routine pattern.

I wonder how many of the figures whom we hold in high regard now would have been popular at the present.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, you have referred in your remarks to Benjamin Franklin. I read with great interest the story in the New York Times of the presentation to you a few days ago of the Benjamin Franklin Institute award for your outstanding work in educational leadership. On that occasion, you made an address. Do you have a copy of that address? We would like to have that address, if you have it, sir.

Dr. BRONK. I am afraid it was pretty much off the cuff, but I will see if I can recapture some of it.

The CHAIRMAN. If you can, we would be very proud and happy if you would send it to us.

Again we want to thank you for your presentation.

The chairman announced earlier the committee would be in recess tomorrow out of respect to the memory of the late member of our committee, Senator Neely.

The committee will meet on Thursday morning at 10 a. m., when our witnesses will be Dr. Lee A. DuBridge, president of the California Institute of Technology, and Dr. Isidor I. Rabi, professor of physics, Columbia University, and past chairman of the President's Science Advisory Committee. At 2 p. m. Thursday the witness will be Dr. Wernher von Braun of the Army Ballistic Missile Agency. The committee will now stand in recess.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m., Thursday, January 23, 1958.)

SCIENCE AND EDUCATION FOR NATIONAL DEFENSE

THURSDAY, JANUARY 23, 1958

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met at 10:25 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the Old Supreme Court Chamber of the Capitol, Senator Lister Hill (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Senators Hill (presiding), Murray, Thurmond, Smith, Ives, Allott, and Cooper.

Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk; Roy E. James, assistant chief clerk; John S. Forsythe, general counsel; William G. Reidy, Michael Bernstein and Frederick R. Blackwell, professional staff members.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will kindly come to order.

Resuming our hearings on Science and Education for National Defense, we will this morning hear as our witness Dr. Lee A. DuBridge, president of the California Institute of Technology.

Dr. DuBridge, for the record, I will mention a few biographical notes concerning you: Dr. DuBridge was born in Terre Haute, Ind., in 1901. He received his bachelor of arts degree at Cornell College in Iowa in 1922, and his doctor of philosophy degree at the University of Wisconsin in 1926.

He has taught physics at the University of Wisconsin, Washington University at St. Louis, and the University of Rochester, where he was also dean of faculty of arts and sciences. During the war, he directed the Radiation Laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In 1946, he assumed his present position as president of the California Institute of Technology.

Dr. DuBridge has served as a member of the General Advisory Committee of the Atomic Energy Commission, the Naval Research Advisory Committee, and the Air Force Scientific Advisory Committee. During the period from 1950 to 1954, he was a member of the National Science Board. In 1951, he joined the Science Advisory Committee of the Office of Defense Mobilization, and from 1952 to 1956, was Chairman of that Committee.

From this brief outline of your career, Dr. DuBridge, it is clear that you come to us eminently qualified to speak on the different aspects of the problem before us. You are a scientist. You have long experience as a teacher of science. You are the president of a great institution of higher learning, one eminent in the field of teaching scientists. You have contributed, through your advice and counsel over many years, both in war and peace, to guarding our Nation's security.

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