PRIORITIES IN NATIONAL NEEDS Senator SMITH. I have a great many questions here but we have not time for all of them. I do want to ask you these questions: What do you think at the moment is the most important and pressing problem from the point of view of national security, the shortage of scientists in the laboratory or the shortage of science teachers in the classrooms; and to which problem, if we cannot do both at once, should Federal aid be primarily directed? Should we put it in the laboratory or in the classroom? Ďr. TELLER. That depends on whether you want this country to be secure in the next 5 years or whether you want it to be secure in the next 20 years. If you neglect the one, the scientists in laboratories, then we will suffer in the next 5 years. If you neglect the other, then you will suffer even worse in the next 20 years. I would say that aid to scientists in the laboratories is more urgent at the moment. Aid to get better teachers is on the other hand less urgent but more important. Senator SMITH. Should scholarships in your judgment, Doctor, be given primarily to study in the sciences or to all fields of knowledge? Are you just interested in specializing in scientists or do you think we should encourage all bright minds? SCHOLARSHIPS IN SCIENCE Dr. TELLER. I would like to confine myself as much as possible to the things that I know, of which I have made a specialty, and that is science. Furthermore, science is the field which we have shamefully neglected. Science is the field in connection with which an emergency exists. That is why I talk about it. I would like to see on a less urgent basis, less from the point of view of an emergency and more on general principles, support on a much broader front. I do not think that all people should become scientists. I think that everybody should be encouraged to do what he wants to do most. However, I think there has been a lack of emphasis on science so far. This is the thing that I would like to correct at the present time. Senator SMITH. That was a very fine answer. I am very glad to get that, Doctor. Do you think we should establish a national institute of science to produce more scientists, or do you think our present educational system, with its colleges and universities throughout the country, is adequately equipped to do the job? Dr. TELLER. I have given no thought to the possibility of a Federal institute of science. I think it might turn out to be an excellent idea. However, I would guess from the few words you have said that this institute of science would be education on a higher level. We need help in the higher levels. We need help even more desperately on the lower levels. Senator SMITH. You are really emphasizing that we are not starting young enough in developing the investigative minds of our children? Dr. TELLER. That is right. If a child has gotten the right start by the time he is 18 years old he cannot be stopped. Senator SMITH. By the time he is 18? Dr. TELLER. By the time he is 18 years old he will find out about science in one way or another. But if he has not been encouraged when he was 10, he will be lost. Senator SMITH. That is most important, and I agree with you from my own experience. I never got enough science. Mr. Chairman, I am going to yield. Dr. TELLER. You have done other things, Senator. WOMEN IN SCIENCE The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, do you feel that our women must go into science more? Dr. TELLER. May I please say this is something about which I do not know. I would like to say that the opportunity should be given equally to everyone. I have known some women at the top of science, at the top of the scientific ladder, and I have the highest regard for them. In numbers they are extremely small. I am sure this is not perchance, but what the reason is I do not know. I think equal opportunity should be given, and after that one should not choose anybody because he is a man or because she is a woman, but whoever shows the most promise should be given the opportunity. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Murray. Senator MURRAY. Due to the lateness of the hour, I will not undertake to ask any questions at this time. I merely wish to commend Dr. Teller for the very fine statement that was made this morning. I think it was one of the most impressive statements that I have ever listened to since I have been in the Senate. I want to compliment you very highly. I think it will be very helpful to this committee in its studies. We appreciate your statement very highly. PLEASURE AND FUN IN SCIENCE The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, in line with what Senator Murray has just said. I wish the youth of America could have been in this room this morning and heard your statement. I have sometimes thought that maybe we have frightened our young people away from science by talking so much about the hard work involved. I think you in your presentation this morning have brought to us the fact that though work in science is hard work there can be a lot of pleasure and a lot of fun in that work. Is that not true? Dr. TELLER. That is precisely right, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think we need to emphasize that more rather than just the idea that these are just terribly hard subjects. You have so clearly demonstrated to us this morning that there could be lots of fun in the field of science and work in science, is that correct? Dr. TELLER. That is absolutely correct. Furthermore, I feel that in science as in mountain climbing, it is hard to get to Mt. Everest. Most people enjoy merely looking at it. The closer you come to it the more you enjoy it. There is fun connected with hard work. Without enthusiasm you will not get the hard work done. But the pleasure is the greatest at the highest levels. 22201-5811 STIMULUS TO CHILDREN Senator SMITH. I am very much impressed with your insistence on creating an interest that stimulates people to go along without any push or goals or whips or anything. I am convinced that you cannot teach children by force except when they are very young. This numbers business, your game at night, impresses me enormously as something we ought to look into. I have a number of grandchildren and they always ask some questions. They are almost boring. But I feel we should always answer them. Certainly I hope that we will be able to follow through in some way or other. We have to reach our young children and we have to show them what a wonderful possibility this is. The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, I think you made it clear, and I will be glad to have you emphasize this if you wish, that one way in which the Federal Government can help meet this problem is by granting stipends to teachers that will encourage them and also help them, make it possible for them to improve themselves and strengthen themselves in their knowledge of their courses and in carrying on their work. Is that right? Dr. TELLER. That is absolutely correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, I guess we would agree that our young top scientists of the next five and ten years are young people who are now in college and graduate schools. Would that not be true? Dr. TELLER. I am quite sure that in science more than in other fields the young generation is the one which carries the greatest burden, and therefore the children who are now in school will be the ones on whom we will have to depend primarily 10 years from today. The CHAIRMAN. We should now, at this time, do all we can to encourage and help them to move forward and develop as much as possible. Is that not true? Dr. TELLER. This is what we have to do or I think our way of life will not survive. The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, again on behalf of the committee I want to express our deep appreciation and our gratitude to you for this magnificent statement which you have given us this morning. It is so challenging, so stimulating, so informative, and so helpful. We are deeply grateful to you, sir. Dr. TELLER. Thank you very much, indeed. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now stand in recess. (Thereupon, at 11:35 a. m., the committee recessed subject to the call of the chair.) SCIENCE AND EDUCATION FOR NATIONAL DEFENSE THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1958 UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE, Washington, D. C. The committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to call, in the Old Supreme Court Chamber of the Capitol, Senator Lister Hill (chairman) presiding. Present: Senators Hill (presiding), Murray, Kennedy, McNamara, Morse, Yarborough, Smith, Ives, Purtell, and Allott. Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk; Roy E. James, assistant chief clerk; John S. Forsythe, general counsel: William G. Reidy and Michael J. Bernstein, professional staff members. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. We are very happy to have with us this morning the Honorable Marion Folsom, Secretary of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. We are delighted that he is accompanied by the Honorable John A. Perkins, the Under Secretary of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare; the Honorable Elliot L. Richardson, the Assistant Secretary of the Department; and Dr. Lawrence G. Derthick, United States Commissioner of Education. Mr. Secretary, you have been with us in the past, and we have always been happy to have you. I want you to know that we certainly welcome you here this morning, and we will be only too glad to have you proceed in your own way. In that connection, Mr. Secretary, would you like to have in the record, the message of the President of the United States in connection. with the educational legislation? (See p. 195.) Secretary FOLSOM. Yes, I think that would be fine. The CHAIRMAN. Also the letter by you under date of January 27, 1958, on the same matter. Also, a summary of proposed appropriations for your educational proposals. (See pp. 198, 199.) Secretary FOLSOM. Yes, I think it would be fine. The CHAIRMAN. I think we should put these in the record following the statement of the Secretary. But first we will place in the record copies of S. 3163, the administration's bill, introduced by Senator Smith and others, with the departmental report, and S. 3187, introduced by me and others. (See pp. 150, 161.) (The bills and report follow :) [S. 3163, 85th Cong., 2d sess.] A BILL To encourage and assist in the expansion and improvement of educational programs to meet critical national needs through the early identification of student aptitudes, strengthening of counseling and guidance services in public high schools, provision of scholarships for able students needing assistance to continue their education beyond high school; strengthening of science and mathematics instruction in the public schools; expansion of graduate programs in colleges and universities, including fellowships; improvement and expansion of modern foreign language teaching; improving State educational records and statistics; and for other purposes Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That this Act may be cited as the "Educational Development Act of 1958". TITLE I-IDENTIFICATION OF APTITUDES AND ENCOURAGEMENT OF ABLE STUDENTS PART A-TESTING AND COUNSELLING AND GUIDANCE AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS SEC. 101. There are hereby authorized to be appropriated for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1959, and each of the three succeeding fiscal years, for grants to States under this part, such sums as the Congress may determine. ALLOTMENTS SEC. 102. From the sums appropriated pursuant to section 101 for any fiscal year, the Commissioner of Education shall allot to each State an amount equal to $1.25 multiplied by the number of students enrolled in grades 9, 10, 11, and 12 in public or other nonprofit schools in the State. The remainder of such sums shall be allotted by the Commissioner among the States on the basis of their relative numbers of students enrolled in grades 9, 10, 11, and 12 in public schools; except that if the amount so allotted to any State from such remainder is less than $5,000, it shall be increased to that amount, with the amounts so allotted to other States being proportionately reduced. PAYMENTS TO STATES; EXPENDITURES COVERED SEC. 103. (a) From the total allotted to a State for a fiscal year under section 102, the Commissioner shall from time to time pay to such State an amount equal to one-half of the expenditures for such year under the State plan approved under section 104- (1) for testing of students in public or other nonprofit elementary or secondary schools to determine their aptitudes and abilities, and for maintaining, for students in public elementary or secondary schools, cumulative records of the results of such tests and other information pertinent to the educational progress of the students, (2) (A) for salaries of additional supervisors of counseling and guidance personnel, (B) for counseling and guidance training, either directly or through public or other nonprofit institutions, of persons who are employed full time or part time by the State educational agency or a local educational agency in counseling and guidance of students in public secondary schools, or who are preparing for such employment, and (C) for salaries of additional counseling and guidance personnel, and (3) for the necessary cost of administering the State plan. For purposes of this section and section 104, the term, "counseling and guidance personnel" includes only those who are exclusively or principally engaged in counseling and guidance of students in public secondary schools and who meet the requirements for full, regular, or standard certification by the State for engaging in such work. (b) In any State which has a State plan approved under section 104 and in which the State educational agency is not authorized by law to make payments to cover the cost of testing students in any one or more nonprofit private schools to determine student abilities and aptitudes, the Commissioner shall reserve from the amount allotted to such State under section 102 for a fiscal year an amount equal to $1.25 multiplied by the number of students enrolled in grades |