IMPROVEMENT OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION

Senator ALLOTT. Let me ask you this: Do you feel that our educational processes in the primary and secondary schools are reasonably satisfactory?

Dr. MEISTER. No, I think a great deal of improvement can be obtained in both the elementary and the secondary school education today, and largely through the recognition of the importance of identifying children of different abilities and giving each level ability the best possible education that we can.

Senator ALLOTT. When we speak of the right to an education, we have to recognize that some of us are born to be plowhorses, and some of us are born to get out on the track, I suppose, and win the Belmont sweepstakes. This applies mentally as well as physically.

The degree to which a child or an individual can be educated depends upon two factors, does it not; first, its innate ability; and second, the drive or motivation which exists in that particular individual. Would that be true?

Dr. MEISTER. I agree that those are the two factors; yes.

Senator ALLOTT. Then there really is no reason for keeping people in school just for the sake of keeping them in school if you can accomplish these purposes and get the most of the innate ability and the drive at any earlier age?

In other words, not just treading water or, I believe, Admiral Rickover expressed it as getting a diploma in their hot, sweaty hand. There is a difference between getting an education and the right to have a diploma, is there not?

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY FOR EDUCATION

Dr. MEISTER. Yes, sir.

You see this wonderful philosophy that we have had in our country, equal opportunity for education for all, does not mean, necessarily, an equal exposure to the same kind of education for all. Equality of an educational opportunity is not synonymous with equality of educational exposure. That is where most of our troubles have come from, the feeling that, get all the children in, give them the same thing in the same way for the same length of time.

I think you expressed it beautifully, Senator, when you pointed to the individual differences that exist. We do not all have the same native ability.

UNDEMOCRATIC TO LULL GOOD MINDS

Senator ALLOTT. I am thinking also in terms that we could free some of our higher educational facilities for people who could actually utilize them for higher education if we abandon this idea.

Is it not as undemocratic to lull good minds or even mediocre minds with terrific drive and motivation behind them? Is it not as undemocratic to lull them into a state of lethargy and frustration or, as you expressed it, drowning them, as it would be, to deny equal educational opportunities to those who are not perhaps quite as brilliant?

Dr. MEISTER. I think we are in agreement there, Senator.

Senator ALLOTT. It works both ways. We in this country, probably have gone off the deep end the other way, have we not, in an attempt to

see that everybody gets an equal education, and that actual equal education has been twisted and distorted.

Dr. MEISTER. I know.

Senator ALLOTT. I was very much interested in your idea, which fits in with my own, when you said that 99 out of 100 children are happiest when they are put to work at imaginative tasks. That, after all, is the test of a teacher, is it not, of a really great teacher?

Dr. MEISTER. And the educational environment that he is able to surround the children with.

OBTAINING TEACHERS' SUPPORT

Senator ALLOTT. Here is a tough question: How can we get the support of teachers generally in this area without, to use a vernacular phrase, putting the cat on their back for what we feel should be corrected? I do not think the teachers are responsible for this. I feel that the whole community is responsible and especially parents.

What can be done to get the educational world thinking in terms of teachers behind a general movement to stop this drowning, to tighten up the strings on our educational system?

Dr. MEISTER. Whatever can be done, Senator, will take a little time to do. The movement is already started, that is, winning teachers over to the point of view of maintaining high academic standards.

One example of what I see happening is in the area of the curriculum for the training of teachers. There was a day not too long ago, when the essential part of teachers training was in methods and methodology, in so-called professional aspects, on the theory that a good teacher could teach anything without any subject matter background. I think you will find the pendulum has swung in the other direction.

RESPONSIBILITY FOR CURRICULUM

Senator ALLOTT. I am very happy to hear that.

In that connection, whose responsibility should the curriculum be? Do you think it is a child's responsibility to select his curriculum? Dr. MEISTER. No. I think the curriculum is primarily the task of the professional staff working with the community and taking into account the needs of the community.

Senator ALLOTT. We have discussed, and you did very ably so, the opportunities that should be given to the gifted. I think it is only fair to point out or to raise this question: Would this involve, in any extent, depriving those who are less gifted or lack as much motivation in anyway, in achieving their full educational abilities?

EXPENDITURES FOR SLOW LEARNERS

Dr. MEISTER. Senator, the facts of the case are that those communities are spending from 2 to 4 times as much for the underprivi leged and the slow learners as they are for the bright and the talented. I think we ought to get a little better balance in the picture. Studying the budgets almost anywhere will convince you that we are spending 2, 3, and 4 times as much for the other end of the scale. I do not begrudge a single dollar that is devoted to the rehabilitation and to giving our poor, unfortunate, incapacitated children a break that will

bring them a little more happiness in life. But I do not think we ought to be in such great imbalance as we are today.

Senator ALLOTT. Thank you very much, Doctor. I appreciate the patience you have had in answering my questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Thurmond.

Senator THURMOND. Doctor, I want to thank you very much for coming here today. We are glad to have you with us. I want to congratulate you on the work that you are doing there.

OTHER SCIENCE HIGH SCHOOLS

Is there any reason why other communities could not meet their responsibilities as your community is doing with regard to teaching science?

Dr. MEISTER. I feel that there must be some communities that do not have the resources that other communities in this country have. All communities, I think, can do more than they are doing, but our wealth and resources are not evenly distributed over the country. That must be taken into account through assistance obtained in other ways, Federal help, State help. I think it is important to all of us that children everywhere be given educational opportunities.

Senator THURMOND. In your school, do you classify students according to talent and ability so that you can give every opportunity to those that are bright and able to take the training faster?

Dr. MEISTER. Even in a school such as ours where we select for high ability, there are differences. I referred earlier to the fact that some of our children take college level courses in high school, not all of them.

Senator THURMOND. In other words, you do give an opportunity for those who can go faster?

Dr. MEISTER. That is right.

In a population of 2,500 we might have 500 who are doing college level work.

Senator THURMOND. Do you classify according to ability and aptitude to go forward?

Dr. MEISTER. That is right. Only those children are permitted into the college level work who are deemed able to do it by their teachers. Senator THURMOND. I presume you would consider it unfair to mix children with inferior preparation or inferior minds, as the case may be, with the children who are well prepared or have bright minds?

Dr. MEISTER. Because of our examination, practically all of our children have the potential for doing good work. They do not all do it, for one reason or another. But in schools of this kind the potential exists for doing high level work.

EDUCATION AS A COMMUNITY RESPONSIBILITY

Senator THURMOND. I notice you made a statement that science should begin way down in the grades. "Way down in the grades" simply means that it would be a community responsibility. In fact, education is a community responsibility, is it not?

Dr. MEISTER. That is right.

Senator THURMOND. Under the Constitution there is no responsibility of the Federal Government. You understand that the Federal

Government, of course, has only the authority that was given in the Constitution and that all other authorities are reserved to the States. Dr. MEISTER. I understand that, sir.

Senator THURMOND. I imagine you are a student of the Constitution. Therefore, it can operate only in the fields of activity which have been delegated specifically to it in the Constitution. The word "education" has not been mentioned in the Constitution, and therefore it is not delegated to the Federal Government. Do you agree with me on that?

Dr. MEISTER. Yes, sir; I am not a constitutional authority, I am not even a lawyer, but I have that point of view, Senator.

UNITED STATES SCIENCE ACADEMY

Senator THURMOND. I have advocated that a United States Science Academy be established, and with this Academy a central library for the filing of results of all research, not only the research that is done in this country, but throughout the world. There would be available to scientists and others who wish to go there, the benefit of that research, and they would be able to obtain it in one place rather than have to go to Harvard University, the University of California, and other places.

Do you feel that a Science Academy operated by the Federal Government under proper constitutional authority would be helpful in the promotion of science?

Dr. MEISTER. Are you thinking of something different from the existing National Academy of Sciences, which is perhaps not completely federally supported, but it does have a Federal relationship? Senator THURMOND. It is a question now of survival. Today, we have a Military Academy and we have a Naval Academy

Dr. MEISTER. I see.

Senator THURMOND. To train our people. I have advocated, since science is playing such a paramount place in the war or preparation for war and defense, that we have a Science Academy so that people there can be trained to be expert scientists, not only to be graduates with a bachelor degree, but on to the doctor's degree and postdoctoral level in order to obtain the finest scientists in the world.

Dr. MEISTER. I do not think that I have a special competency in that area. I can see some problems that will arise. You surely cannot train all the scientists in this Academy. You would still need to use our research centers and our universities all over the country, would you not?

Senator THURMOND. They will still be used as they are now.

LIBRARY WITH TRANSLATION FACILITIES

Dr. MEISTER. There is one aspect of your proposal that appeals to me greatly. I would like to express my point of view with reference to that. That is the development of a library with translation facilities. We do not have it today, a central repository of all the good research that is going on everywhere in the world.

That aspect of it I think we need badly. I would certainly like to see that as a part of a Government agency.

The rest of your program might turn out to be a good thing, but I do not know whether my opinion there would be worth anything, one way or another.

Senator THURMOND. Doctor, you cannot have good education or good teaching unless you have discipline, can you? That is one of the basic qualities that is essential, is it not, in the home and in the school, also?

DEFINITION OF "DISCIPLINE"

Dr. MEISTER. Yes. Of course, you want to spell out a little bit, would you not, what we mean by "discipline." I would hate to see discipline of the kind that has hanging over each child a stick or a strap or some threat of punishment. I would like to see fine discipline in the sense of seriousness of purpose, application to one's job, and holding to standards.

Senator THURMOND. In the schools, of course, you want good behavior of pupils?

Dr. MEISTER. Yes, sir.

Senator THURMOND. Bad behavior would not only affect the individual student but it would affect other students as well.

Dr. MEISTER. Yes. I would like to get out of the school those few individuals who prevent the others from learning. I think we have not done enough of that. I would like to see more of that done; yes, sir.

Senator THURMOND. You would be in favor of that?

Dr. MEISTER. I certainly would.

Senator THURMOND. Eliminate those who are guilty of delinquency and crime and create a disorder and set a bad example for others?

Dr. MEISTER. Yes. I have taken such a stand with my colleagues in the New York City public schools where we have problems.

ARTICLE FROM NEW YORK TIMES

Senator THURMOND. I was reading in the New York Times, Wednesday, January 29, an article that seems to be of some importance. It

says:

HEAD OF SCHOOL BESET BY CRIME, LEAPS TO DEATH

The principal of a Brooklyn public school that has been beset by juvenile crime committed suicide today.

George Goldfarb, 55-year-old head of John Marshall Junior High School, plunged to his death from the roof of the 6-story apartment house in which he lived at 201 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn.

His body was found at 11:50 a. m. in a rear courtyard. He was to have appeared at 10 a. m., for the third time, before a special Kings County Grand Jury that has been investigating violence in Brooklyn schools.

Mr. Goldfarb had newspaper clippings in his wallet relating to the inquiry.
Did you know Mr. Goldfarb?

Dr. MEISTER. I met him once. I did not know him well.
Senator THURMOND. It goes on to say:

Mr. Goldfarb testified before the Grand Jury last Thursday, 2 days after a 13-year-old girl reported that she had been raped in the basement of the school by a 15-year-old youth. The school is at Park Place and Rochester Avenue in Crown Heights. It is almost equally divided between white and Negro pupils. At that time, Mr. Goldfarb was reported to have told the jurors that he would like to have a policeman stationed inside his school. A patrolman had been on guard outside at the time of the attack.