nurses have to come in-practical nurses for the home. Massachusetts has a very good program for household helpers who are trained people to go in and held take care of the mother when she comes home from the hospital with a new baby, and also to feed the children breakfast before they go off to school.

Mr. SPRINGER. I think, Dr. Taussig, that is a most worthwhile program. May I say if you would care to investigate I am sure that the city of Baltimore does have a good manpower retraining act. Now all they have to do is to expand that to take in a school of practical nursing.

I will give you one which I know about which happens to be across the street from my home in Champaign, Ill. Under the Manpower Retraining Act they rented a large home and they are in the process of training over a 9-month period. This is continuous and has been for over 2 years.

These are

They turn out about 80 to 100 nurses every 9 months. practical nurses and they are people who formerly had no skills except probably they could do household work. In that community we have two of the larger clinics in the country. We have a tremendous demand in that immediate vicinity for practical nurses.

This has been the solution to the problem in our community and it is one of the finest manpower retraining features that I know anything about. That is under the Manpower Retraining Act.

Thank you, Dr. Taussig, for a very fine statement.

Dr. TAUSSIG. Thank you, Mr. Springer.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Jarman.

Mr. JARMAN. I am very much interested in your statement. I am certainly in complete agreement with you that our Nation must concentrate on an accelerated program of training medical personnel at all levels of the profession. One thing that troubles me some is with reference to the subject on which you commented on page 2 and that is the contribution of some of our present medical manpower to the field of international health.

With the recognized shortages, the very real medical shortages, that we have here in the United States, I am having real difficulty in my own mind in coming to any conclusions as to how much we are justified in contributing medical personnel outside this country until we have achieved a better balance, a better supply in the United States. I would be interested in any further comments you have to make. Dr. TAUSSIG. I think my answer there would be that we have a better supply of manpower than most of the other countries and certainly a better supply than the countries for whom we are planning international programs. We also are a debtor country. We are bringing in more doctors from foreign countries than we send out to foreig. countries.

We have an enormous number of doctors trained in the other countries who every year are coming into this country.

It seems to me that we are only giving a little in proportion to the amount we are receiving. We are drawing enormously on our medical manpower-I am not against it-which is going over in our war effort. But it seems to me it would be well to put something in their country in an effort toward good will and peace on the other side.

It is going to bring up the health of the foreign communities and that is going to bring peace and not unrest in the countries to whom we are exporting medical manpower. And it is not a very large number

who are going. They are trying to get people to go over to train the people over there to work cooperatively with them.

Mr. JARMAN. Of course what is proposed is our own Government's program of getting additional personnel into the interrational field. Now the manpower that you see that you speak of coming to us from abroad isn't most of that on a personal decision basis ather than any foreign government sponsored program?

Dr. TAUSSIG. Yes, I think it is. I speak by general experience. Most of it is personal. I have trained a great many foreign doctors in the days when we were allowed to have foreign fellows through the International Health, and those who came over, recommended by their governments, wanting to be trained, have overwhelmingly gone back.

Mr. JARMAN. Thank you.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Devine.
Mr. DEVINE. I have no questions.
Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Rogers.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate your statement, Dr. Taussig. I think you have made a very excellent point about the need for training practical nurses. I share your feeling that perhaps these people should be included in this sort of training bill. I have been trying to find out why they have not wanted to use the facilities of junior colleges for any training. What is your feeling on that?

Dr. TAUSSIG. I think the junior colleges might go into high schools and stimulate the students to do practical nursing. I know of instances where they have gone out into rural high schools. I go to Cape Cod in the summer and they have some very excellent young people who were stimulated in high school to go into training to be medical technicians.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. For instance, I know in the nursing program, the junior colleges in my State are turning out students who are doing very well with-in the State examinations. They are in the top category. Yet we seem to not be willing to use this vast resource for getting people fairly quickly who can be put to work under the supervision of more highly trained people.

Dr. TAUSSIG. Yes, there are many places in home nursing, many places in the hospital that a practical nurse can help.

Many a time at home, the person just needs help.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. With the medical care program coming into existence this will accentuate the need I would think for home nurses and for nursing care.

Dr. TAUSSIG. I am sure it will. I have of course been in favor of medicare, as you know, for some time but it has shown up the tremendous need. I know in Massachusetts I was shocked to see the figures whea they said that 20 percent of the hospitals and 80 percent of the nursing homes would not qualify for medicare and that there are practically no visiting nurses to send to the home.

The people are going to be disappointed for the lack of service they can get. It seems to me it is up to us to bring in service as promptly

as we can.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Yes, I share that feeling very strongly.

On this international health bill that was mentioned, actually we could probably stand some help from some other country. Our infant mortality rate is still quite high, is it not, for a country which has supposed to have reached the medical competence we have here? I understand some of the Scandinavian countries have reduced their infant mortality far beyond ours.

Dr. TAUSSIG. I am sure when we go and work with our foreign doctors we learn, too. We bring back good ideas to our country. This is not a one-way street we are sending those people out on. Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you very much.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Broyhill.

Mr. BROYHILL. No questions.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Kornegay.

Mr. KORNEGAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Taussig, it is certainly a pleasure to have you before the committee.

Dr. TAUSSIG. Thank you.

Mr. KORNEGAY. It is always a great gratifying experience for us to have one who has distinguished herself, as you have, in your chosen field of medicine.

I congratulate you on the wonderful work you have done over the years.

I, like some of my colleagues on the committee, have some misgivings about this bill. You point up the question of money. I think some of us are concerned over whether or not this particular legislation actually gets to the heart of the problem, and that is training people to look after the sick. We see it quite often in the doctor training program, the productivity is very limited. I want to congratulate you and thank you for coming over and giving us the benefit of your knowledge.

Dr. TAUSSIG. It seems to me with the increasing demand for medical care, although it may be possible, it is very difficult to speed up greatly the training of the doctors. We tried it during the war. We can speed up the training of the paramedical and we can increase use of the paramedical people. I feel this is a very important area of legislation in order to really be able to come give the people the care they want and to give it to them promptly. That is why I think the money is well invested.

Mr. KORNEGAY. There is a great need for paramedical personnel, practical nurses, people who are whose training is not so extensive and whose educational background need not be as intensive as that of the doctors or dentists.

Mention was made of the Manpower Redevelopment Training Act. It is doing wonderful things in training people.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Thank you.

Mr. Satterfield.

Mr. SATTERFIELD. No questions.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Thank you very much, Dr. Taussig.
Dr. TAUSSIG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It was a pleasure to be here.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. The next witness who will testify is Dr. Rovelstad along with Dr. Mann.

STATEMENT OF DR. HOMER D. ROVELSTAD, DR. WILLIAM R. MANN, BEN F. MILLER, AND BERNARD J. CONWAY, ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN DENTAL ASSOCIATION AND AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF DENTAL SCHOOLS

Dr. ROVELSTAD. My name is Dr. Homer D. Rovelstad of Grand Forks, N. Dak. In addition to maintaining a private practice, I am a member of the American Dental Association's Council on Legislation.

With me here today are Dr. William R. Mann, dean of the University of Michigan School of Dentistry; Mr. Ben F. Miller III, assistant secretary of the American Dental Association's Council on Dental Education; and Mr. Bernard J. Conway, chief legal officer of the American Dental Association.

We are testifying on behalf of the American Dental Association and the American Association of Dental Schools.

The associations we represent, Mr. Chairman, believe that passage of H.R. 13196 can be of some benefit in improving the quality of training of dental auxiliary personnel. There can be no question but that assuring an adequate supply of highly trained health personnel in the years to come is one of the most pressing responsibilities facing the Nation.

The proposal presently before you is a step in the total effort to meet this responsibility. With your permission, I will ask Dr. Mann to comment in detail on the provisions of H.R. 13196.

Dr. MANN. Mr. Chairman, H.R. 13196, as we understand it, would authorize a new 3-year program providing grants for construction of training centers for the allied health professions, grants to improve the quality of such centers, traineeships for advanced training to prepare personnel for teaching, supervision, and other specialized functions and project grants to training centers to develop, demonstrate, or evaluate curriculums for training of new types of health technologists. The bill is limited in applicability to training centers that provide programs "leading to a baccalaureate or equivalent degree or to a higher degree" with priority going to those that provide three or more of the curriculums to be specified in regulation of the Surgeon General.

Given this latter limitation, the bill is not applicable to all three dental auxiliary categories. The dental laboratory technician, the dental assistant, and the dental hygienist. Neither the dental laboratory technician nor the dental assistant is trained at the baccalaureate level.

In addition, there exists both 2- and 4-year training programs for the dental hygienist and thus not even all of these training programs would qualify under the terms of the bill.

It would be a mistake, then, to view H.R. 13196 as mounting a program for the allied professions parallel in scope to that provided dentistry and medicine by the Health Professions Educational Assistance Act. The thrust of the bill we are considering today is toward supplying more teachers and administrators to staff existing and projected educational programs and will not substantially reduce the present and growing shortage of dental auxiliaries.

There are at present 16 universities that have well-defined health science centers that probably would qualify immediately under H.R.

13196 as training centers for dental hygienists. In addition, we would judge that some of the other existing programs would be able to qualify within a short period of time.

With regard to new programs, it should be noted that the American Dental Association and the American Association of Dental Schools both have policy urging that all dental schools do establish dental hygiene programs. About 20 of the schools do not now have such programs but some of these might be expected to react to the stimulus provided by this bill.

While precise statistics are not available, it is believed that the 4-year dental hygiene programs contribute substantially to providing the personnel needed for teaching and dental public health. At the present time, there are three graduate programs in dental hygiene that are primarily designed to prepare supervisors and administrators for both 4- and 2-year curriculums.

Of the six exclusively 4-year curriculums, only one is structured and so designed as a total of 4 years of dental hygiene education. The others represent the completion of 2 years of dental hygiene education and 2 years of additional general education in the arts and sciences.

Experimentation in the design of the 4-year curriculum is, then, desirable and the provisions of H.R. 13196 for curriculum design and experimentation seems appropriate to this purpose. Such experimental programs could include

1. Teacher training programs for the development of instructors and teachers in a 2-year dental hygiene, dental assisting, and dental technology programs.

2. Four-year curriculum development for the training of public health dental hygienists.

3. Experimental investigations into the expansion of the duties of presently recognized auxiliaries, based upon the educational experience of graduates from 2-year dental hygiene programs.

With regard to the improvement grants section, we believe that the availability of such funds will prove useful in enabling the schools to enhance the quality of their offerings. Similarly the traineeship provision should have the effect of broadening the opportunities of selected dental hygienists and make it possible for these superior students to prepare themselves for specialized service in the educational and administrative fields.

H.R. 13196, then, is well designed to make some contribution to the health manpower needs of the Nation and we support these aspects of the bill.

We would also like to comment on section 4 of the bill which increases the loan forgiveness for physicians who practice in low income rural areas. There also is a serious and well-documented shortage of dentists in many rural areas throughout the country and we believe the bill should be amended to provide equal inducements as between physicians and dentists.

Finally we, would like to comment on that section relating to student loans. While our association does not feel competent to comment on the relative fiscal merits involved in these alternate forms of financing, we are concerned that nothing be done to jeopardize the continuing provision of loans to dental students.