flexible so companies do not just remove them and then hire a new work force or try a one-time fix. This is a significant change.

The issue is whether we use tax credits or training funds for people to make an investment and to increase funding above the current 1 percent of payroll, which is the general American experience. Resolution of this issue will require a joint effort of the American Society for Training and Development and probably even more groups than the Secretary and I could even mention today. This issue will get significant research and insight this next year. Secretary MARTIN. That is why I find this an incredibly fascinating job. I mean, this is the future, Mr. Chairman. We are talking about change in the best sense of the word.

BASIC SKILLS

Senator HARKIN. I know, and there is always the question you do not really know what works. What may work one place-but may I submit one thought? The basics always work. Knowing how to read, knowing how to write, knowing how to speak-these basics always work, I do not care what job it is. And I—again, just from my own limited viewpoint and having chaired this committee now a few years-been on it now for 6-in looking at these issues, many times it is only functional training, like you say. You train someone functionally.

And I can understand the business aspect of it. They are meeting the bottom line. They do the functional training. And if it changes then they move them out and the train someone else functionally. And there is not much thought given to the basics. So somehow this has got to be put back into the work place.

I had talked a couple years ago about requiring this and using tax incentives to do it. That is the stick; the carrot is the tax incentive. Because it is a national problem, we need to require that, for those people who are hired for minimum wage jobs or within 150 or 175 or whatever percent of the minimum wage, that there be a component to that job of every day the employer requiring certain basic skills training; reading, writing, things like that.

Because this is especially true of entry-level jobs, where young people are going—and I have done a few little tests myself at some of these establishments. You know that these are some-not all the time-but many times, functionally illiterate people working there. Well, anyway, that is just a thought.

Secretary MARTIN. It is an exciting thought, though, and I think you will want to read the SCANS report. This is a product of the Department due early in the summer, which is going to address the workplace and-

Senator HARKIN. SCAN?

Secretary MARTIN. SCANS, S-C-A-N-S. It is the Secretary's Commission on

Mr. JONES. Achieving Necessary Skills.

Secretary MARTIN. Yes; Secretary's Commission on Achieving Necessary Skills. One of the important parts of SCANS is looking at what we need nationally. That does not mean we are going to necessarily agree on everything. But starting the intellectual ferment, making sure the discussion takes place here and everywhere

throughout America is going to be part of the change, and I look forward to working with you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator HARKIN. That is coming out this summer?

Secretary MARTIN. Yes; we will make sure you get a copy.

Senator HARKIN. I appreciate that. It was just a policy question, but do you have anything else to add, Madam Secretary? I appreciate your spending the time. I will submit the rest in writing. Secretary MARTIN. Thank you.

JTPA OVERSIGHT

Senator HARKIN. I had one question on oversight of job training programs. We have gotten a lot of incoming fire on fraud and abuse in job training and oversight of job training and people abusing the system. I will just submit that one in writing.

Secretary MARTIN. Thank you. One of the things—I am going to note that I think the amendments will make some difference-is that some of the information you are getting is actually coming from the Department of Labor.

Senator HARKIN. I am sorry.

Secretary MARTIN. Some of the information is actually coming from the Department of Labor. We are carefully examining these and making sure our inspection system is up to snuff, and that is helping us find out what these amendments should be. I want to assure you that we want the system to work, and it will only work if it is carefully examined and holds to the standards we all would want it to.

Senator HARKIN. Thank you, Madam Secretary.

Secretary MARTIN. Thank you.

Senator HARKIN. I see that our distinguished colleague from Arkansas has joined us.

Senator BUMPERS. Madam Secretary, with your indulgence, I will submit my questions. Colin Powell is a big hero; I had to go out and talk to him first.

Secretary MARTIN. I would never mind taking second place to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Senator HARKIN. I suppose that is where all the cameras are, right, Senator Bumpers? [Laughter.]

Senator BUMPERS. Look for all the politicians and then you will know where the cameras are. [Laughter.]

Madam Secretary, I will submit a few questions to you in writing.

Secretary MARTIN. Thank you.

Senator BUMPERS. You can respond at your leisure.

Secretary MARTIN. Thank you, and thank you for stopping in.

I understand that-and I am sure I fall into this category— people do not always like testifying. I must tell you, I think the dialog is just really good for me, and I hope it is useful for the Members of the House and Senate. Thank you for asking me.

Senator BUMPERS. How does it feel to be sitting on the other side of the table?

Secretary MARTIN. Not bad, Senator, if you want to know the truth. [Laughter.]

I want to tell you that each morning when I wake up-I found that true when I was in the House too-but I am so excited to go to work. I just want to make things better. So I am very grateful to the President and to the Senate for making it happen, especially to Senator Simon, without whose help I could not do it. [Laughter.] Senator BUMPERS. Since we are just philosophizing, if I were going to make a criticism of Members of Congress in these hearings, it seems to me that people on this side of the table are often unnecessarily combative and confrontational. And I suppose that comes from maybe a desire for publicity or camera, sound bytes, or whatever.

But we are really here to try to elicit information on which to make decisions. And I have never thought those attitudes ever served any useful purpose. It does not cost anything, it just means I am going to be nice to you. I am not like those other guys. [Laughter.]

Secretary MARTIN. Well, all your colleagues on the subcommittee this morning followed that excellent advice you just gave. They were very congenial. I found it not just useful, but also very good to be here.

Senator BUMPERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator HARKIN. Thank you, Senator Bumpers. Thank you, Madam Secretary.

Secretary MARTIN. Thank you.

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY THE SUBCOMMITTEE

Senator HARKIN. There will be some additional questions from various Senators which we will submit to you for your response. [The following questions were not asked at the hearing, but were submitted to the Department for response subsequent to the hearing:]

QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY THE SUBCOMMITTEE

WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE

Question: The glass ceiling project focuses efforts on only a small number of women who have reached the top levels of their profession. What can the Department do to expand this project to enhance the mobility and opportunity of all women workers so that they are fairly considered for promotion at all levels?

Answer: The "glass ceiling" project is intended to insure that women and minorities meet no barriers to moving from entry level jobs to middle management and up as high and as far as their talents and abilities take them. The project is just one of several efforts of the Department to ensure equal employment opportunity for women at all levels. OFCCP has at least three other activities underway designed to enhance the employment opportunities for women through affirmative action:

1. Routine compliance reviews: OFCCP conducts between 5,000 and 6,000 compliance reviews each year. A focus of every one of

these is to determine that there are not barriers to the advancement of women and that the contractor is making good faith efforts to take affirmative actions to ensure equal employment opportunity.

2. Women in nontraditional jobs: The Department has been examining the barriers and opportunities for advancement of women in the construction and aerospace industries. The two task forces are making specific recommendations to improve the affirmative action compliance of these two industries.

3. OFCCP and BAT joint enforcement: The OFCCP and the Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training will join forces to improve the enforcement of the equal employment opportunity requirements of 29 CFR Part 30 for apprenticeship programs. These two agencies will draw upon the expertise and experience of the Women's Bureau to enhance the affirmative action results of these efforts.

The "glass ceiling" project is only one part of our total enforcement strategy designed to enhance the employment opportunities for women as well as minorities, individuals with disabilities and Vietnam era and disabled veterans at all levels of employment.

EFFORTS TO PROMOTE NONTRADITIONAL TRAINING FOR WOMEN

Question: What efforts will the Department undertake to promote nontraditional training efforts for women to address the continued occupational segregation of women in traditional female training and jobs?

Answer: The Department is in the early stages of launching a multi-faceted initiative to help women gain access to the skilled trades. The Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training (BAT), the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP), and the Women's Bureau have been charged with developing and implementing an aggressive program to increase the recruitment and retention of women in apprenticeship programs in the skilled trades. Through this initiative, the Department hopes to remove the barriers prohibiting women not only from entering, but also from successfully competing in the skilled trades once employed.

The initiative contains four major components: enforcement, education and technical assistance, recruitment, and retention. Increased enforcement of laws protecting equal opportunity in apprenticeship for women will be attained by granting enforcement authority to the OFCCP in addition to normal enforcement efforts by BAT. This action will strengthen equal opportunity employment

review due to the additional resources available at OFCCP.

In the area of education and technical assistance, the Department: (1) will, through the Women's Bureau, publish a Directory of Non-traditional Training and Employment Programs for Women, listing by State the various programs and organizations that assist women in obtaining skilled, non-traditional jobs and related training; and (2) will, through its Workforce Quality Clearinghouse, operated by the Women's Bureau, list preapprenticeship and apprenticeship programs for women and "how-to" curriculum guides to assist those who wish to establish their own in-house programs.

Enhanced recruitment of women into the skilled trades will be attained through the coordinated efforts of BAT and the Job Corps program, with a particular emphasis on preparing and referring female Job Corps participants into apprenticeship opportunities.

In order to encourage retention and placement of women in skilled trades, the Department will undertake a number of activities, including: (1) the development of a manual for tradeswomen outlining rights and ways to deal with infringement of rights, a set of policy guidelines for employers and a set of policy guidelines for unions; and (2) the establishment of the WIN (Women in Non-traditional Jobs) Award in the Women's Bureau to recognize successful programs and individuals in non-traditional jobs.

Question.

OVERSIGHT OF JOB TRAINING PROGRAMS

As probably everyone knows, through recent reports of the Department's Inspector General, there are grave concerns about job training program operations, especially at the local level. Money set aside for job training is allegedly not getting to those who are most in need of training. Instead, funds are being lost to unnecessary and unreasonable procurement, service provider profits, and duplication of services.