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dividuals and it seems to me that the Federal Government can take the time to do this.

For these reasons I do not support S-2308 and urge that it be withdrawn and that the Bristol Cliffs Wilderness Area be established as it should have been done in the first place, correctly.

Sincerely,

THOMAS HARROUN

Senator LEAHY. Mr. Clair Lathrop, Mr. Lathrop-Mrs. Lathrop. Mrs. LATHROP. I'm not Clair Lathrop; I'm Ruth Lathrop. Senator LEAHY. I'm sorry. Would you repeat?

STATEMENT OF RUTH LATHROP, BRISTOL, VT.

Mrs. LATHROP. I'm not Clair Lathrop; I'm Ruth Lathrop and I'd like to speak for my husband. A customer who he has done business with for 25 years passed away and he has gone to Ohio. If it's all right I'd like to speak. My husband owns four small parcels of land. I own two of them with him. The government hasn't acknowledged that but that is beside the point. He is the fourth generation to own the lumber business in the Town of Bristol. We employ some 40-odd people. We are not a big business. It's been in too small a family and I have done the bookkeeping for some 30-odd years so I have an idea of how much this affects the company, too. In the fall of 1974 one of these properties were going in which the Government has included in the wilderness area our forest where we have selectively marked for timber cutting for this coming winter of 1975 and in the spring of 1975. Well, by the time we got around or before we got to cutting it we were notified that we were not able to cut it, so naturally, we haven't done anything about it.

My husband has spoken to the Forest Service and they say absolutely no cutting, no nothing. We have always managed our land in a selective way. We cut and hope to harvest a crop every 20 years approximately. We pay taxes for these 20 years and, of course, we harvest crop in that length of time it helps to maintain the land. This land, being close to our mill, naturally, is some we want to keep. My husband is a great hunter and he's a fisherman and he believes in the outdoors. We don't post, have never posted any of our land. We have never asked for anybody to get a permit to go on our land whether they wanted to hike, whether they wanted to fish, whether they want to Ski-Doo. Whatever they want to do they are allowed to do it. We have always maintained our land and hoped to maintain it as a backwoods area and harvesting our timber and letting it grow the rest of the time. The public can use it as they wish. Now, we have nothing against the Forest Service maintaining wilderness land on their land if they wish. That is perfectly all right, but if you want to procure more land for wilderness we certainly hope that you go about it in a democratic way. Senator LEAHY. Thank you.

The next witness scheduled is Mr. Ronald Vincent.

STATEMENT OF RONALD VINCENT, BRISTOL, VT.

Mr. VINCENT. My name is Ronald Vincent. I'm 35 years old and I have lived in Bristol Notch all my life. I am probably the smallest landholder here seeing how I own about six square, a circumference of six inches on my father's land which happens to be my water well.

I live across the road from the wilderness area and about 7 years ago I tried to find water on my land and the well drillers found that the rocks under my land were so hard that as they tried to drill they were breaking their bits faster than they could put them on. So after they ruined $2,300 worth of bits they asked me if they could try it somewhere else and they liked to start on ledge. Across the road my father and mother live and there happens to be a ledge sitting there and I went across the road.

Senator LEAHY. You felt at that point you were willing to try something different?

Mr. VINCENT. Yes. Of course, I had signed a contract with the water drilling company and they were obligated to find me water no matter how much it cost them, but realizing that one hand washes the other

Senator LEAHY. No pun intended under the circumstances.

Mr. VINCENT. I went across the road and my folks agreed to let them drill there. We found a very good supply of water in 211⁄2 hours. I'm all in favor of the Wilderness Act. It's something that future people of this country will need. Our children will have to grow up under enough restrictions as it is without being able to have some enjoyment that I have had at the beginning of my life.

I was brought up under the concept that America was the freest country in the world. I still believe it is. When you get a notice in the mail and they tell you all of a sudden you have lost all your freedom on your land, you know, it sort of makes you think a little bit. Am I really living in America? Can somebody that you don't even know or ever heard about take your land that you have lived on all your life without any regard to your feelings or emotions that this is your home? It isn't a piece of property with me and my folks. We lived there because that is our home. It's not a piece of ground in a State and whether or not this Act is ever changed, I don't know, but I do know that the land will never be sold to the United States Government. It's just one of those things that has been in my family for generations and it's going to stay there, no matter, you know, no matter how much goes across the board. We do know that we can't be forced to sell. I understand that we can be condemned out of it. Well, it would be like a man without a country to be taken from your land, our land, and it's not America, and I'm quite sure that it will be changed because any man that is sitting in the House of Representatives or in the Congress that is supposed to represent large bodies of men or people, when he hears the true facts, he will, he is actually taking a man's right away from him. In the United States of America I'm quite sure that he is going to give them back. Thank you.

Senator LEAHY. Mr. Herbert Parker.

STATEMENT OF HERBERT M. PARKER, BRISTOL, VT.

Mr. PARKER. Senator Leahy and committee members. You hear people talk about Government of the people, by the people, and for the people. If this passing of the Wilderness Act without notifying the property owners is an example of this form of Government I want no part of it. My home farm contains about 200 acres of which 150

acres will be controlled by the wilderness area. In the past we have cut logs on this land to pay our taxes when we have had a bad year and also to build new buildings and repair old ones. We also use it to cut wood for our furnace. Now, the Forest Service says I definitely cannot cut logs on this land. I have a deed of my grandparents and we have paid taxes on it for approximately 100 years, and I would like to pass it on to our children as we have had no desire to sell this land as I have had many chances to do so. We hear of people who commit rape and murder when they are arrested and their constitutional rights have been violated, but if you live by the law and pay your taxes apparently you have no rights. If the Government can pass laws like the Wilderness Act and control land my grandparents, parents, and I have owned and paid taxes on for 100 years which the tax is now approximately $416 a year it is much easier for me to understand why politicians are assassinated.

I believe that you have some very Communist-minded employees working for the Forest Service who should be dismissed immediately before they try to set up more regulations trying to control private land. Thank you.

Senator LEAHY. I have to point out that while I have concern about the way, the precedents, I have no question whatsoever of the loyalty of the members of the Forest Service, the loyalty to the United States. I will not and do not have any question about their Americanism or loyalty, and I want that to appear on the record. We have time for another person who has been asked to be here tonight. Mr. Phil Benedict.

STATEMENT OF PHILIP S. BENEDICT, BRISTOL, VT.

Mr. BENEDICT. My name is Phil Benedict. I have a home in this area and it's on the map. It will be part No. 4. I feel that this is an unfair land takeover. I feel it's against my rights as a citizen and a taxpayer and which fortunately I have been able to pay these taxes for the 27 years I owned the land and never went behind on it. I feel while I am being forced to sell and the restrictions are unfair on this home, on my home and land. It's an unfair takeover, I feel, and I think most important of all is that my house is approximately 50 feet from the highway. Well, it's a dirt highway but it's still a highway, and I have a garden there and a lawn and a garage, and I do not feel that that house and the yard and garden are--I never have felt it was wilderness. I don't feel it's wilderness now, so I don't think it should be considered as wilderness in the place where I raise my family.

Senator LEAHY. We have finished the list of those people who are scheduled to appear this evening. A number of other people are on the list for tomorrow. Is everybody here who would want to be heard who would like to be heard this evening? I want to make sure that, we have tried to advertise the hearings and tried to make sure that everybody could get heard and anybody who wishes to be heard who has not been heard. Mr. Vincent?

Mr. VINCENT. I would like to hear a point of view from the Forest Service.

Senator LEAHY. There will be, I know there is a statement that will be supplied by the Forest Service. I'd like to point out they are holding

back the official position on this, but, of course, the point is whatever Congress decides on this particular act they will have to follow through on.

Mr. VINCENT. What I meant was since everybody has so much. Well, to begin with there isn't anybody here, I don't think, including the Forest Service that knows what happened. What gives a man the right to say, well, I am going to take this whole section here even though it includes private property? We need this. We are going to take this. What gives the man the right to say this? This is what I'd like to know. Is there something in the Forest Service that says if we need it we are going to take it?

Senator LEAHY. The Forest Service acted within the boundaries of the legislation that was passed last year by the Congress.

Mr. VINCENT. Up until that time there wasn't anything that said they could do this?"

Senator LEAHY. I understand. That is the reason that we are here tonight. That is the reason that we are having these hearings to decide what we do now. That is, unfortunately, to make the pros and cons of the old act because that has been passed, and what I'm concerned about is pros and cons of legislation that Senator Stafford and I have now introduced into the U.S. Senate.

Mr. VINCENT. I'm the type of fellow that just because I'm let off the hook and somebody else isn't I still feel that something isn't right and unless everybody is treated the same, as far as I'm concerned, I'd like to say the exclusion of the westerl vside here and to hell with anybody on the back side. I don't go along with that.

Senator LEAHY. The legislation that we have introduced excludes them all.

Mr. VINCENT. Right. I haven't heard the comment we'll exclude one side because we are getting a lot of noise from this side and we are going to keep the other side. I would really like to hear something from the Forest Service because maybe not now, maybe at a later date, but an explanation of why this was done this way. We haven't as of yet had an explanation why that some people are or quite a few people's land were taken and some people with some influence and money was excluded. This is what we would like to know.

Senator LEAHY. There was another gentleman with his hand up.

STATEMENT OF STEPHEN LINES, PRESIDENT, WYNDSHIRE CORP., CAMBRIDGE, MASS.

Mr. LINES. My name is Steve Lines and I'm a member of the Wyndshire Corp. which owns a hundred acres of land.

Sentor LEAHY. You are on for tomorrow. You prefer to testify tonight?

Mr. LINES. Yes, because I can't be here tomorrow. Several years ago the group of us bought the land as an investment and as a place where we could build either recreation or permanent homes. At this stage the time, effort and money that we have put into this area is lost. Is it in the public interest to condemn private land such that it is of little value to anyone wishing in to buy it except the Federal Government? Add to this the destruction of even the temporary use of the land. I think that it's certaintly within the rights of the individual

to be able to sell this land to the Federal Government if they so wish, but one should not have the private or the open market value of the land utterly destroyed by this process. I leave it in your good graces to help us restore the value, the rights and the duties that go along with private ownership. I'm sure that no one here is against the creation of wilderness land. I certainly am not against the principle. Senator LEAHY. I understand, Mr. Lines, the disadvantage an individual is put at when they try to put their individual efforts against those of the Federal Government

Mr. LINES. Because unlike the Federal Government, I don't have the ability to go continually into debt.

Senator LEAHY. I don't think the U.S. Government could go much longer. The Government has proven it has the ability to go into debt, but I would point out that it's partly at least to make it possible for you to test what the Government has done that is why we are here tonight.

Mr. LINES. I understand.

Senator LEAHY. And we are trying to work out adequate legislation that will protect the rights and interests of all the individual landowners and society in general, and hopefully to avoid the necessity or even the desire for litigation on the private individuals because, quite frankly, that is the way I feel. Thank you. Is there anybody else that has not been heard that wishes to be heard?

STATEMENT OF JOHN MOORE, BRISTOL, VT.

Mr. MOORE. I'm scheduled to speak tomorrow morning at 10:30 a.m. I'd like to say my name is John Moore. I have 140 acres on the east side of the wilderness area. It was in 1959 when I bought it with my late wife. We have enjoyed its view and everything. Over in the eastern section of the wilderness, there are 12 pieces of property about which the Forest Department sent us a letter and map and just said, now, you know where your property line is. You know on the map. You don't know on the ground. It is very difficult to know where to stop cutting Christmas trees or getting firewood, building a fire, and when you finally want to get it surveyed, all you can do is work with the Forest Department, so that I know that took longer. After you had it surveyed and find out how much land you have, all right, you want to sell some of it to a friend because you sold him only 32 acres, you believe. You can't get a "yes" or "no" out of the Forestry Department because I couldn't. It delays everything. I just lost a tenant in the fall. He had to move out of my other house. I'm up here alone. My wife died. I garden, cut grass, shop, everything a man has to do when he is alone. I don't like taking care of the other house. Now, I have to give the Forest Department 60 days' notice before I can jump and sell it. We have a willing buyer. Is he willing for 2 months? It's an inconvenience but that is a small matter compared to the rights of citizens which have been violated.

Senator LEAHY. Thank you. The subcommittee will recess until 8

a.m. tomorrow.

[Whereupon the Subcommittee on Environment, Soil Conservation, and Forestry, recessed to meet again Monday, Sept. 29, 1975 at 8 o'clock.]

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