Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. There would, of course, be periodic evaluation of national service and if is the right thing for our time, it could encompass some 3 million young people in a decade

or so.

Mr. EBERLY. The 5,000 figure, sir, is not only for training; it is for the full operation of the program. It includes the subsistence allowances to be provided for these people.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I am just trying to get some feeling for the cost of it.

Mr. EBERLY. It is that order of magnitude, yes, sir, that is a large figure, but we also have to look at the cost to society of not having the national service.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I challenge that. I don't think the witness is doing justly by his own program, if you will allow me. You are talking about 3 million, that includes women.

Mr. EBERLY. Yes, sir.

Senator JAVITS. You are not recommending the drafting of women? Mr. EBERLY. No, sir.

Senator JAVITS. Of course not. So why estimate a cost on something you are not going to do?

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. They are volunteers.
Senator JAVITS. No, he is not estimating volunteers.

Mr. EBERLY. Sir, the chairman was asking for the total reservoir of young people who would be available at any one time for a program of this nature.

Senator JAVITS. I understand, but you are putting a price tag of $15 billion, ridiculously, on something that isn't so. Isn't that correct? You are not going to draft women, are you?

Mr. EBERLY. I was responding to the chairman's question.

Senator JAVITS. I know, but

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Wait a minute.

This wasn't the question, Senator Javits, as I understood it, Mr. Eberly, he feels that there will be between a million and a million-five, in the national service, at any given time.

Senator JAVITS. Of whom one-third will be in the Army.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. That isn't my interpretation. Senator PELL. That is what he said.

Senator JAVITS. You didn't subtract the Army.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. How many people would you figure, other than the military would be in the national service at any given time?

Mr. EBERLY. In about 10 years, I would say on the order of 2 or 3 million, if you are asking for the steady-state condition. But obviously, to build into this, it will be a few thousand. You are going to have to build in gradually.

Senator PROUTY. Let me ask you this question.

John Michelson of the Institute of National Studies outlined a proposal for a system of national service and projects at a cost of about $12 billion a year.

Mr. EBERLY. $12 billion?

Senator PROUTY. $12 billion.

Mr. EBERLY. Yes; that is on the order of magnitude.

Senator PROUTY. Do you agree with his figure?

Mr. EBERLY. Well, I think the big question here, gentlemen, is how big a program of national service will grow. I certainly do not advocate, as I mentioned, overnight establishing a huge program involving 2 or 3 million young people.

I was responding to questions regarding the total pool of young people who would be available for nonmilitary programs.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Let me ask you about your pilot program. Why don't we get back to that, to try to bring it down

to cases?

Senator JAVITS. I think so.

Or you will ruin us all.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Can you tell us just a little about your pilot program? What you think it will cost?

Mr. EBERLY. Yes, well, this would begin with national service summer camps, with placement centers, with subsistence allowances, for persons in approved activities.

And this could begin, the first year might cost on the order of $150 million, $200 million.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. And how many would you have in your program at that time?

Mr. EBERLY. Let me just check my report.

At the end of the first year, we suggest a total of 30,000 in approved activities, 10,000 in national service summer camps, and 10,000 in placement centers. This is a total of 50,000. At the end of the second year, there would be a total of 150,000; at the end of the third year, perhaps 500,000.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. And could you tell us a little bit in somewhat greater detail how you see that working in these areas you have outlines? Health and education, and these others?

Mr. EBERLY. I think these two are the major ones, Mr. Chairman. In the field of education

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. The elderly, too?

Do you see this working with the elderly people?

Mr. EBERLY. They would be working with them. We have figures from the field of health indicating that there could be a certain, on the order of one volunteer for each three or four beds in a hospital, there would be a certain ratio.

This figures out to several hundred thousand throughout the country. Similarly, in the field of education-and here again, these avenues will be pursued more fully at our conference in 2 weeks-there is evidence that each teacher could use a teacher aid.

Most teachers now are required to have master's degrees, yet how much time do they themselves spend utilizing their master's degree ability?

It is suggested that a teacher aid could assist in the field of education, as they are now doing in the Headstart program, and as we found out from this very significant report a few months ago, which said that Headstart was almost too successful, because it was building up the expectations of these children. There has to be now a followthrough program.

To get a followthrough, we need a large-scale program, and this is the sort of thing where young people in national service would fit in very well.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. What has been the reaction of the young people that you have talked to about this idea?

Mr. EBERLY. It has been generally very favorable. Young people want to have the choice of how they will serve society. Some prefer the military, some the nonmilitary. There have been a number of polls on campuses and outside by national groups, by student groups, and these generally reflect a ratio of 3 to 4 to 1, in favor of a largescale national service program.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. And so it is your feeling that particularly among the young people feel that national service would be a worthwhile alternative and a way of performing useful services? Mr. EBERLY. It seems that way to me. In early February, there was a conference held among student leaders, ranging from Young Americans for Freedom to Students for Democratic Society, and at that time, they endorsed the idea of voluntary national service very strongly. Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Now one of the things you bring out in your testimony that this would be avaiable for those rejected by the draft.

Mr. EBERLY. Yes, sir.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I wonder what your studies have indicated currently whether those who have been rejected by the draft have been willing and capable of participating in some other form of service?

Mr. EBERLY. I think the testimony from Secretary of Labor Wirtz is most relevant to that, where they have provided guidance services for young men, after having been rejected for the draft, and yet the vast majority of these young men have somehow filtered through, and just not become invloved in the kind of programs that this country has made available.

So my going a few additional steps, when a young man registers for a draft, by giving him the option of going into nonmilitary service, by making more information available, by having these summer programs that I referred to, that would provide service experience, cross cultural mixing up, and information about the service opportunities, both military and nonmilitary, available to young people in our society. Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. How do you think this national service would reduce the inequities in the draft? You make that as one of your points.

Mr. EBERLY. That rests on the fundamental belief which I hold that these kinds of nonmilitary service activities which we are talking about are very much in the national interest.

I do not mean to suggest that they are equal to the young man who dies on the battlefield. We must defend ourselves, but the Nation must also progress and provide for the education of the young people, provide for health, for conservation, and there is presently a gap, and a very large gap, between society's needs in these areas, and the response through the market economy, in filling these needs.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Let me ask you this, Mr. Eberly.

Do you believe that we ought to provide these opportunities for national service in a limited war situation, where a young person might have an opportunity to serve in the VISTA program, instead of going into the Army?

Mr. EBERLY. Yes, sir; because the needs are still there, and as the figures point out very clearly, given the continuation of the limited war as it is now, there will still be hundreds of thousands of young men qualified for military service, who are not in fact called.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. That is correct.

But should that be equated? Should that be equated with the military service?

Mr. EBERLY. It should not be equated, but it should be given recognition.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. And really, the point is what kinds of recognition? How much should be equated?

Mr. EBERLY. And the recognition that we suggest in terms of the military factor is being placed toward the end of the order of call. There would also be educational benefits.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. What if we have a total mobilization, or a national emergency? Would you still permit national service as an alternative to the draft?

Mr. EBERLY. Well, since everybody would be liable who was in a national service program, it would simply mean a transition into an operation in which everything is devoted to the war effort.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Well, you wouldn't favor it in that situation, would you? National service as an alternative for the draft in mobilization situations?

Mr. EBERLY. In a situation like that, the national service would be seen as, you know, embracing what is in the national interest at that time, which probably would have to be defined as defending the Nation.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. You see, the difficulty I have, Mr. Eberly, is that the draft calls now go to about 15,000 a month, and the age for those being selected is down just above 19, and 470,000 Americans are in Vietnam, not including those who are in Thailand or off the coast-all this just in a limited war situation. I think it raises the rather difficult problem of whether you should permit national service for one individual, as an alternative, really, in effect, to the problems of going off to a limited war, but not to all individuals. Mr. EBERLY. Since the program would have to begin small, anyway, Mr. Chairman, could we consider this? That there would be accepted into this program women, who are not liable for military service, the rejectees from military service, and those who were beyond the age of call, if this youngest first goes into effect?

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, could you yield at this point? I don't think it is fair to allow Mr. Eberly's testimony to stand as the classic exposition of the concept of national service. It isn't mine. It may be yours, sir, and I respect it, but I think it would be most unfair for the subcommittee to conclude that this is the national service that McNamara has talked about, that I have talked about, that others have talked about.

It is not. When it comes to my turn to question you, I will make clear why it is not. And I think it would be most unfair, Mr. Chairman, therefore, to assume that this is the classic model and that therefore, it is valid or invalid upon the witness' testimony.

I am sorry, Mr. Eberly. I say that with all respect to you, but this is not my idea of national service.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. To get back to the point that I was talking to, Mr. Eberly. I think your suggestion concerned development of a pilot program which would include rejectees, those who have passed the age of induction. Have you a specific proposal along those lines?

Mr. EBERLY. We do have a proposal that was given to the Advisory Commission; yes.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. And is that available for us? Mr. EBERLY. Yes, sir; it is. Actually, I think one had been sent out earlier, but I will be happy to make another one available.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I wish you would.

Mr. EBERLY. The plan essentially is this option plan. May I point out, in further response to Senator Javits, that we have a national service advisory board, among whom there is agreement regarding the national service concept, the notion of the basic responsibility between youth and society, but among whom there is very little agreement about any particular program of national service.

And I do not pretend, gentlemen, to be the only person to speak on this subject, but am deliberately planning this, and trying to stimulate public discussion, so that the wide range of views impinging on this subject will be heard and discussed.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I would ask that our earlier dialog with regard to figures be worked out in the correction of the record, so that they reflect what would accurately be your estimates. Mr. EBERLY. We have the figures in the record, which indicate the year-by-year buildup.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Fine.

What I was attempting to do was to apply the general figures of your estimate of $5,000 per trainee. I think that in the various existing programs-Teacher Corps, Peace Corps, VISTA-there are differences in cost figures.

Mr. EBERLY. Oh, surely.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. But I would ask that we adjust those figures to reflect accurately the point which you were trying to get across, in numbers, because that is what I am interested in, and you can work that out.

Mr. EBERLY. We have a chapter on resources available, the jobs to be done, the costs, so that should be pretty well pointed out.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Thank you. Senator Prouty. Senator PROUTY. Mr. Eberly, I want to make certain that I understand your proposal. Let's assume that I am designated 1-A by a draft board. That makes me eligible for service.

Now, at that time, do I have the option to join one of these other programs?

Mr. EBERLY. The option would come, Senator, at the time of registration for the draft.

Senator PROUTY. At the time of registration.

Mr. EBERLY. Yes. You see, I think that if we leave until a person has the hot breath of the draft board on the back of his neck, the time of decision as to what kind of service he will go into, then the influence of the draft would be too strong.

What we are talking about is a positive service motivation, the idea that young people do want to be of service to society; they would choose

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