than they do finding the solution to the problem. In other words, if they find the solution the game is over. They love the game. Of course, our purpose is to see if we cannot get this game finished and go on to some other.

Secretary GARDNER. Yes, sir; I certainly agree with that brief and vivid description of some kinds of academic involvement in problems. But I would say, having been close to this field for perhaps 35 years, that in the past half dozen years there has been extraordinary progress in both mental health and juvenile delinquency; there has been a real upcurve in these fields, and I think that this bill is one of the results of these recent developments.

Shall I proceed?

Senator CLARK. Yes; please do. I am going to have to leave, and I will ask Senator Kennedy if he will preside. I have read your statement, and I am in general sympathy with it.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts (presiding pro tempore). You may proceed.

Secretary GARDNER. We had started with juvenile delinquency, and I was dealing with only those items in which the House committee came out with different points in the administration bill.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Senator Clark mentioned to me that you are going through the differences between the administration bill and the other bill.

As I remember the report of the House, they talked about the planning grants as really not being necessary, because there were other provisions in other legislation. Would you respond to that question? If you have already responded, so to speak, I will not go into it again.

Secretary GARDNER. I simply made the point that other bills have limited resources for planning and will be unlikely to give much. attention to youth and problems of juvenile delinquency. We feel that it is necessary to have funds specifically earmarked for juvenile delinquency.

Shall I proceed?

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. If you would, please.

Secretary GARDNER. Much evidence now indicates that problems of delinquency are associated in a complex fashion with the formation of a separate and distinct "youth culture." Everyone recognizes that the differences between youth and the adult world can harden into antagonisms, and even explode in overt conflict.

For these reasons the President's bill emphasizes the need to engage youth in designing constructive solutions to the problems of delinquency. Experience has shown that delinquent and near-delinquent youth are capable of disciplined and responsible thought and action if they are given responsible roles.

The experiences of "White Hats" in cities throughout the country and of groups such as Pride, Inc., here in the District demonstrate the effectiveness of involving youth in attempts to reduce violence.

The House bill, as reported, omits the passages referring to youth involvement in programs. We believe that it is important that the significance of this approach be reflected in the action of the Congress. The final point-and I will say, Mr. Chairman, the strongest point in which I differ with the House committee-has to do with the 1-year

authorization. This would seriously hamper our ability to administer the program.

Juvenile delinquency, like poverty and related social problems, is rooted deep in the fabric of our society and will not yield to shortterm solutions. It takes months and even years of planning before some programs can be properly designed and successfully launched.

While the urgency of the problem suggests the need for immediate action, our current knowledge and the integral relation of delinquency of American life indicate that progress comes slowly. It is therefore necessary at the outset to plan for delinquency prevention and control in long-range terms and to rely on an enlarged commitment of time, funds and other resources if the problem is to be treated seriously.

Senator MURPHY. As to the short-term funding being a problem, I completely agree with you on that; on the other hand, we find very often that the plans as set up and as presented are really 1-year plans. I have yet to see a plan coming before any committee on which I serve, where there has been a practical demonstration of progress and intent. For instance, in a poverty program we have had so many reports, so many negative reactions, so many problems in the community, that it has been a problem each year. Congress may obviously follow this program very carefully. And every year we hope that this year we can come in and say: "This is working fine-good; give that the gun. This is working fine, let that one go. This one is not working so well. This is due for a change."

But we do not get that. We get a "snow job", but they always say wait until next year it will be better. [Laughter.]

Senator MURPHY. As you said, you made great progress in the last 6 years, but the juvenile delinquency continues to increase. I have the actual figures here. It is greater than ever. So, we may say that we are making progress.

As Senator Kennedy knows, in the poverty programs, let us know how you are making out. And in the job program, how long did they stay on the job? Really, what are we accomplishing? Are we studying it because this is the way we decide to do it? Must we say that this is it, for all time?

These are things that concern me. Perhaps, sometimes in our enthusiasm, we expect too much too quickly. I am dealing in precious years now, and I want to have some accomplishments to show for these

years.

Secretary GARDNER. Senator Murphy, those are relevant points, but juvenile delinquency stems from circumstances in our society which are vastly larger than these programs. In order to judge the effect of these programs, especially demonstration programs, one has to look at the change in delinquency rates in the areas in which the programs have been carried on. We will be glad to submit for the record some of the evidence of the changes in these areas where you have a specific interest. Senator MURPHY. Many years when I was a youngster, my father was an adult coach, probably the first professional coach. It was in Pennsylvania. They had what they called the spring relay games. They had great interest. He designed the same games for the grammar schools and the parochial schools. Surprisingly enough, the 4-week period directly preceding that contest, there was practically no juvenile delinquency. The kids were busy; they were getting in shape, or training for these contests, or helping their friends to train for them.

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And so, as I say, my interest in this goes back many, many years. Secretary GARDNER. You are arguing for more youth involvement. Senator MURPHY. I certainly am.

Secretary GARDNER. I would say, also, that the rising crime statistics, in some respects, reflect better reporting data. We now know more about the nature and extent of different types of delinquent activities.

Senator MURPHY. I very often think of youngsters who are inclined to feel that they would like to have an automobile. And I would explain that they should earn the right to have the automobile. Unfortunately, some of them get together and they borrow the automobile. We had an instance some few years back, which concerned itself with hot rods. The court did not know quite what to do with these youngsters. I made a suggestion-of course, they could have been sentenced to jail. I suggested that we treat them like a grownup in some respects. They came out and worked on the golf course. They had to give up 10 weekends of their time. I kept track of that. None of them have been in any trouble since. And he keeps his respect in that

way.

Secretary GARDNER. This is in line with our concern to develop new correctional procedures. There is great room for experimentation in community-based alternatives to correctional institutions so that youngsters can remain in their own communities and to be a part of the normal life.

I believe I have touched on the major points of difference between the two bills. If you want to direct some questions to us, we will try to answer them.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary. You and your associates are familiar to the members of this subcommittee and the parent committee.

I would like to ask you, Mr. Secretary, some questions.

We have heard before about the number of programs that are in HEW for the prevention and control of delinquency. Will you have a single coordinator for those programs in HEW?

Secretary GARDNER. Yes, sir. I do not think there has been a time in the history of the Department where there has been more explicit coordination at the top with respect to juvenile delinquency. One of the first jobs I ever held was in juvenile court. Assistant Secretary Carter is deeply interested in juvenile delinquency and is one of our best informed people. He has undertaken to coordinate all of the relevant programs throughout the Department. And to assist him in doing this, we created, last year, a Committee on Juvenile Delinquency within the Department, and this has functioned, drawing together the lines of activity.

Recently we have reorganized three agencies: Vocational Rehabilitation, Welfare, and Aging, and have put them under the direction of Miss Mary Switzer, who is here today. Miss Switzer has already demonstrated very strongly her interest in juvenile delinquncy and has initiated a very effective program.

As Commissioner of this newly combined unit, she will be able to relate three of our juvenile delinquency programs, the VRA, Children's Bureau, and the Office of Juvenile Delinquency.

We are now better able to coordinate delinquency programs than we have ever been; because we have top-level concern; because of Mr.

Carter's coordinating role, because we have a Department-wide Committee, and finally because of our recent reorganization.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. As to the table of organization, so that we may have a better understanding, Mr. Carter has the prime responsibility in the Department, is that correct, in coordinating all of the programs?

Secretary GARDNER. That is correct.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. But you have the overall responsibility?

Secertary GARDNER. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. That was achieved through, as I understand it, your reorganization program?

Secretary GARDNER. No; I asked Mr. Carter to act as coordinator last year just shortly after he was appointed because I knew of his long interest in this field.

Now, the recent reorganization of the three agencies permits far closer coordination; in fact, complete coordination of three of the major programs: The Office of Juvenile Delinquency, Vocational Rehabilitation, and the Children's Bureau.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. If there are grants, for example, that come out of Vocational Rehabilitation or the Children's Bureau, does Mr. Carter make the decision as to where these grants are going to be made and who will receive them?

Secretary GARDNER. Not under the present arrangements; no. Under the arrangements which we are now setting up, those will pass through Miss Switzer's hands.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Will she know what is going on in the National Institutes of Health?

Secretary GARDNER. She will certainly know what is going on. She will not have the coordinating responsibility, however, that would be in the hands of Lisle Carter.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Well, what I am trying to really arrive at is this: I certainly am sympathetic with what you are attempting to achieve in this direction, but it seems to me that the grant authority is really the key person. I am just trying to be sure, from the general description, how Mr. Carter would have his responsibility established if the approval of these various programs is going to be in another department.

Secretary GARDNER. I would like to ask Mr. Carter to comment on

that.

Mr. CARTER. What we are attempting to do, Senator Kennedy, is to establish a coordination of policy and priorities. The Secretary has also created a position under me, the Deputy Assistant Secretary, who has the primary responsibility on a day-to-day basis for programs dealing with juvenile delinquency and youth development. Through the Committee and through additional groups we are establishing, the Deputy Assistant Secretary will help programs to move in the same direction, to bring together our resources for research, training, and services, to bear most effectively on the problem. By establishing priorities and program goals we can bring consistency into our grantmaking practices.

Furthermore, we are gaining particular experience as a result of a new undertaking in the Department, the Center of Community

Planning, which has shown us how to package diverse grant programs, so that they can have maximum impact on any given problem. Our experience with the center, together with our beginning efforts to develop departmentwide priorities and policies, will help to strengthen coordination at the level of the Office of the Secretary, and among the granting agencies.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. We have an Executive order which was issued May 11, 1961, Executive Order 10940, entitled "Establishing the President's Committee on Juvenile Delinquency and Youth Crime." And section 2 of that Executive order says:

The Committee (1) shall review, evaluate, and promote the coordination of the activities of the several departments and agencies of the Federal Government relating to juvenile delinquency and youth crime; (2) shall stimulate experimentation, innovation, and improvement in Federal programs; (3) shall encourage cooperation and the sharing of information between Federal agencies and State, local, and private organizations having similar responsibilties and interests; (4) shall make recommendations to the Federal departments and agencies on measures to make more effective the prevention, treatment, and control of juvenile delinquency and youth crime-

and then it goes on into other sections as well.

I am wondering what the status of that Committee is today? Secretary GARDNER. It has not been active recently, Senator Kennedy.

When I first came here 3 years ago, we had, I believe, two meetings of the Committee. We resolved some serious interdepartmental problems at the time, and we have not met since.

One of the reasons why we have not been active is that we have been waiting for the new legislation.

We have worked very closely with the Department of Justice in developing the legislation, but the Committee has not had any recent activity.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Is there anything that is replacing that coordination today?

We are about to pass legislation now that is significant and important, and we would like to try to find out where is the point of greatest consolidation and efficiency within the Department. I am just wondering if we pass this legislation what we are going to have: whether we are going to have duplication between various Federal department. We have an existing order that was trying to eliminate that kind of duplication. I am just wondering what we are going to do about it.

Secretary GARDNER. I would say, Senator Kennedy, that the last year has not been characterized by interdepartmental duplication or argument. The main question has been relative to the roles of the Department of Justice and of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare in carrying out the pending legislation, and we have this worked out very amicably. We have a complete and full understanding, as to what each of the Departments is to do and how the legislative proposals will be coordinated. If any interdepartmental problems do arise, it is perfectly possible to make the President's Committee more active.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Senator Murphy has suggested that if you could submit a statement as to your relationship with the Attorney General, and the division of responsibility, and what