Senator DODD. I am absolutely sure of that. I have no doubt about it. A lot of these youngsters who have been involved in these riots, these difficulties, already have criminal records in many instances. Senator CLARK. I was very much astonished by the experience that Senator Murphy and I had in Watts earlier this spring. We went to at least one place, and probably more, where I thought that there was splendid work being done with the youngsters in that area in rehabilitating them and that this could be a model for many of our

cities.

Senator Murphy?

Senator MURPHY. As you know, Senator Dodd, I have been interested in this sort of thing for a long time.

Senator DODD. Yes, I do know that.

Senator MURPHY. Yesterday, I had Archie Moore who was formerly the world's heavyweight boxing champion. Archie Moore has busied himself in the city of San Diego in setting up a program of his own. where youngsters, ages 8 through 14 years, are brought together in a group, on which I helped arrange the financing. He was back here yesterday, because of this magnificent job. I wanted him to get some exposure here in the Nation's Capital, in the press.

He did it by just going out and understanding kids and working with the kids: First of all, getting their respect and teaching discipline and respect for themselves and others, respect for their property and other people's property. He has done a great job.

I have the greatest regard for all of these people who are doing this work. We have had some witnesses up here who are supposed to be experts in this matter, but, unfortunately, I do not think that they have ever lived with a case-have ever experienced the things that kids really experience. They approach it from a high-level intellectual point of view, which is very good and I am sure will be very helpful in the long run, but in my lifetime I have found that a practical approach works. It is very important that the youngster understands the adult and the adult understands the youngster.

I think that we could take Archie Moore's program and that it would work. I think it would take less time to train other people to take on this program in other areas than many other programs. It is a great advantage to have a fellow with a great reputation like Archie Moore. Years ago, we had a great Olympic champion, Griffin. Right after the Olympics I tried to help him get started. I had three programs that I wanted to get started with him, but I could not get much action. Of course, I was not a U.S. Senator then. I was just a person.

This is the kind of thing, as I have said—many bills are before the Senate, and I notice nearly all seem to have provisions for study, for research.

During consideration of a bill before the Public Works Committee, one man testified not long ago and his observations stick out in my memory. He said: "Please, for goodness sake, do not sent us any more experts; do not provide money for any more studies."

There are so many studies in Washington that you could not put them all in the buildings that now exist.

Senator DODD. Maybe we ought to build a new building. [Laughter.] Senator MURPHY. It would take quite a building to hold all of these studies.

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I would like to see a program start out-I do not care whether it is the kind of thing Archie Moore is doing, or not-but something concrete, a basic pilot plan, and let us watch it. Maybe start two or three of them. I think that we could find one, test it and if it proves workable, move to the third step of spreading this around.

You find, now, programs that take 18 months to get started-2 years to get started, and they say "We have been thinking about it; we have been talking about it."

We have been talking about juvenile delinquency, I think, too long and not doing nearly enough about it.

You and I know that there is a time in everybody's life when you had a chance to turn to the right, or to turn the wrong way. That is extremely important. I could go down a list of people with whom I know this to be true, including myself. I was once told by a Jesuit priest: "It is about time that you made up your mind which way you will go either this way, or the other way.'

These are the things I think we need to go into. I could not be any more enthusiastic on the subject than I am. I am so pleased that you are here, because I know that you have done a great deal about it, and I know that the chairman has, also. What we are doing is as badly needed as anything, as much as air pollution or water pollution, or any other program.

I think it must start with the youngsters. It must become a habit of being honest and decent, starting from the beginning, like I found Archie Moore doing, which impresed me greatly.

Senator CLARK. Thank you, Senator Murphy.

You may proceed, Senator Dodd.

Senator DODD. I am well aware of Senator Murphy's long-time interest in this field, in this particular area. I think it will help a great deal. I think that we do need people like Archie Moore, as many as we can get, and to give them the best training that we can get for them, so that they can help us to get better solutions for this great problem. I think that we ought to do both things. I think we have to have highly trained specialists, and the Archie Moores, as well. I think that the putting of these two together is the best hope that we have, as a practical matter-if that is the way to put it-for the solution of the problem.

I was saying that by the time these youngsters get into serious trouble, they have had other problems as well, as a rule. And this development may go along for months or years and somewhere along the line, too often, there is a point of no return, and beyond this point the getting of a job, the changing of schools, or living in a halfway house no longer helps. The youth has lost that desire to come back, make that decision that Senator Murphy referred to. He has gone too far already. He has entered a different world, a world of crime, of violence, of drug addiction or of insanity.

And right here, it seem to me that only a person skilled in understanding human emotions, psychology, and social problems can reach such a youngster or such a personality to give him or to give her a new direction into the world of reality. And only highly trained persons can build a child's motivation to begin, a will to continue, and

a character to sustain the growth process so that he may take advantage of life's opportunities within the law rather than outside of the law. I am wholly convinced that this type of individual treatment must remain the core substance of correctional practice, and I do not think that our youth are getting this treatment presently. Anybody who has studied this problem, I am sure, realizes that we desperately need help in the probation departments, that we need it in the training schools, and I believe we will need it in these new programs and new institutions that are now being considered by your committee.

There is a third problem. It is made clear by the recent report from the President's Crime Commission and from other sources that the present juvenile correctional systems are inadequate in many other ways besides personnel and treatment programs.

They are defective in organization and policy, in administration, and in physical facilities.

I sometimes feel that we have been the victims of our own creations. We have neglected to improve the juvenile courts. We have undermanned the probation departments and we have turned juvenile training schools into junior prisons.

I think that this is a bad mistake.

We have created monsters that threaten to devour our delinquent youth, and in sheer desperation we are proposing a bill to run away from them rather than to tame and control them; that is, to control these factors in situations that I have been describing.

This bill would spend $450 million to keep and get youths out of the courts, out of the probation departments, out of the training schools and into community-based programs, but it would not lift a finger to remove the defects from the existing correctional structure. I think this is wrong.

If the old system is defective beyond repair, we must abolish it; on the other hand, if we want to maintain it, we must improve it. We must do one or the other, but we cannot just leave it suspended in midair in its present inadequate state while spending millions on getting delinquents out of it and into something else.

I think that as a policy we should be less concerned with developing new institutions and programs than we should be with improving the old ones. The best example of this is the juvenile court system. What glowing promise this idea offered us in 1900, 67 years ago.

But the execution of that idea has been pretty bad, I think.

In my statement I quote some testimony before our Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency. I will not take the time to read it now. I hope that the committee will read it when it has an opportunity to do so.

In 1959, when Joseph Lohman, to whom I have made reference, testified before the subcommittee and I had been on the committee only a short time-he questioned the execution of the juvenile court idea and since that time I have heard hundreds of witnesses, I suppose all experts in this field, and they have all said in one way or another just what Mr. Lohman said.

So, I submit to you today, Mr. Chairman and Senator Murphy and the other members of the subcommittee, that the reason our institutions have not worked is not because the basic ideas behind them are unsound but, rather, I think, it is because we have not provided

the trained people or the money to make those ideas work. That is the point that I want to make, principally.

I would like to suggest something else here, if I may.

I believe, for example, that every part of the juvenile correctional field must reflect the new knowledge and new methods and new correctional techniques. Every juvenile court must provide correctional youth services capable of helping a child to regain his foothold in the community, every training school we have today and every other correctional institution should be community based.

And every such institution should act as a halfway house from the first day a child gets there to help him prepare for an effective reentry into his own neighborhood.

Unless we improve these basic institutions, I fear we will fail again as we have failed before, to prevent and control the delinquency problem. So, unless we improve what we have and make it an integral part of the new program I fear that we will be dissipating our efforts. Mr. Chairman, you and the members of your subcommittee may hear from the administration's witnesses and from others that the bill as it stands now can do all the things that I have said it does not do but should do.

I have found no master plan which shows specifically what this bill will do other than support the community-based programs and institutions.

So, at this point, and, finally, I respect fully propose an amendment to cover each of the areas I think the bill should cover: personnel, research, rehabilitation, and prevention.

I propose that we include in the bill a provision for the training and recruitment of personnel.

Second, I propose that under the sections dealing with research and development, we specifically require the creation of a controlled experiment establishing a treatment unit for delinquents ranging from preinstitutional to postinstitutional treatment.

And, third, I request respectfully that the bill be modified to specifically allow Federal assistance to juvenile courts, to probation departments, and to long-term correctional institutions.

And, finally, I suggest a provision designed to get the Nation's school systems involved in the prevention of juvenile delinquency. And I hope, Mr. Chairman, Senator Murphy, and the other members of the subcommittee, that you will give this amendment-and I know you will-your full consideration.

Senator CLARK. We will, certainly. Do you have the text with you? Senator DODD. I do have that.

Senator CLARK. I would like to have the text inserted and printed in the record at the conclusion of your remarks.

Senator DODD. I thank you very much.

Senator CLARK. If you will furnish it for the record.

Senator DODD. I will not take any more of your time, since you have been good enough to allow the whole statement to be made a part of the record.

(The prepared statement of and amendments proposed to S. 1248 by Senator Dodd follow:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS J. DODD, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT

Mr. Chairman, nothing is more important to the welfare of this country than its youth. The future of our country and our society rests in their hands.

Unfortunately, every year more and more of our young people are appearing in juvenile courts across the land as the result of delinquent behavior of varying degrees. Since 1957 juvenile court cases have risen 58 percent.

This unfortunate trend makes it incumbent upon us to do all in our power to see that the boys and girls of our country who find themselves confronted with this situation are given the very best treatment that our modern society is capable of administering.

Several months ago I introduced the Juvenile Delinquency Prevention Act in the Senate on behalf of the President. I believe strongly in the purpose of this act, and I support most of its provisions.

However, I do have some reservations regarding this measure and I appreciate this opportunity to present them to your committee.

This bill directs States, local communities and nonprofit organizations to devise better ways of preventing delinquency and of rehabilitating delinquents.

It offers Federal grants for planning, for development and for research.

And, it provides in large part for diagnostic centers, youth services bureaus, prerelease guidance centers, halfway houses and other socalled community based treatment facilities.

I am very pleased with these provisions but after considerable study I question the direction in which this bill proposes to move our overall delinquency control program.

It gives no promise of a concerted and comprehensive improvement of the basic juvenile correctional systems, the courts, the probation departments and the training schools.

At the same time, the bill reflects an overwhelming amount of confidence in a new system of peripheral services and facilities composed of community based programs.

Mr. Chairman, I think we must reconsider some of the basic problems in deliquency control before we go any further.

And I think we must do something concrete about these problems. However, if we propose to manage the 4 million children in the United States who are either delinquent or in danger of becoming delinquent we must have trained and qualified people to do it.

We have learned recently from the President's Crime Commission report and from a study by the National Council on Crime and Delinquency that there are only a third of the trained people we need, anywhere, in our correctional system.

In his legislation we are proposing new institutions and programs that will cost the Federal Government $450 million.

These new institutions and programs will desperately need more people. But, nowhere does the bill provide for the training or recruitment of personnel for these new institutions, let alone the old ones. This is most unfortunate for it could easily lead to the erosion of