known about. We need detention facilities. We need diagnostic facilities.

Now, some of us in the larger cities, of course, are much better off in this respect than some of the smaller communities.

But we need probation services, we need good social workers, people who are sensitive, dedicated, intelligent, working with these young people. And we have to be realistic about what we pay them if we are going to keep them. And we do need these schools. We need facilities for emotionally disturbed children. It might surprise you to know how much this costs, as we are operating now. I think perhaps it could be done for less. But we have schools in Cleveland, a limited number of them, where generally the cost per capita is $8,000 to $9,000 per year. This is for one child. And this is a great drain on the individual communities-the resources are severely limited. I am sure we can find ways to handle some of these problems more efficiently that we have been doing.

But this is illustrative of the great cost.

Mr. HURLEY. Senator Kennedy, I think we do have the basic tools and the basic concepts to handle the problem. It is a matter of expanding the facilities.

I do not think that we require any great new innovations or something entirely new. We have, as I say, the basic structures, and the basic knowledge. It is just a matter of expanding the facilities to handle the problem a little better.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Have you talked about the differences between the opportunities that are available to young people that get in trouble in suburbia versus the city?

Could you make any comments on that?

Mr. WHITLATCH. We have not discussed that, but I would say the opportunities in suburbia are much greater for children than in the inner city. Of course, they have the direction to these opportunities,

too.

We strive manfully, for example, to establish Boy Scout units in the inner city, and usually the reason they say we cannot get them going is the lack of indigenous leadership which we have in the suburbs.

I do not know that this is exactly true, but I am sure that it would take more paid personnel in relation to the number of volunteers in the inner city than it would in the suburbs.

The same thing is true with the YMCA. You would have to have more people operating in the center city on paid staff than you would in the suburbs, where you can-well, sometimes with considerable effort-recruit people.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Have we learned some things from practical experience as to what is effective in the suburban area, where there is, as I understand it, a greater personal attention that is devoted to the individuals that run into some kind of problem with the law versus what happens in the urban cities? Are there lessons we can learn from that experience?

Mr. HURLEY. I would say, Senator, that the boy in the suburban area, he has greater pressures and greater control than the boy in the center city. The boy in the center city is usually out in the street most of the time, no parental control. Usually no father in the home, or something like that. So that is identification when the peer group becomes more important than the boy in suburbia.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Doesn't that relate more to the types of difficulties that they might have? Isn't the incidence of the more traditional misdemeanors and felonies typical in the city, while the breaking of law in the suburbs might be somewhat of a different nature, but certainly either can be the initial steps toward a life of crime.

Mr. HURLEY. Your observation is true. But in terms of preventing, control of it, you have a better chance in the suburban area than you do in the city. This is basically what I meant.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Yes. And isn't it correspondingly true, as I think was suggested by your earlier comment, that the hard-core problems of crime are in the cities? And yet I gather from the comments that you have made here that the ability to treat or care for the young person who runs into trouble is not nearly as great in the city.

Mr. HURLEY. That is right. And this is the problem we havewhether or not we are going to allow the boy to remain in the home, or whether he must be confined to some training facility or some other facility such as the boys' home.

I personally feel from my own experience that the boys' home isshould be developed along with the training facility, where he can identify himself with a smaller group, to which their aims can be better directed and controlled.

Mr. WHITLATCH. Senator, I think it is interesting in our county, where we are just about equally divided between the city of Cleveland and suburbia-about 900,000 in each-that 75 percent of our delinquency comes from Cleveland, and 25 percent from suburbia.

Now, I do not believe that there are cases-perhaps some of the same cases in suburbia-which could come to the juvenile court which do not come, and I think some of this is all right. In the small community there is more friendliness, less disposition to resort to the law in some offenses. And I think also in thinking with suburbia and central city we must bear in mind there is always a movement from the central city to suburbia, and some of these very families that we were serving in the city today are now in the suburbs, and they are of course taking with them their social attitudes and their family patterns and so on, which does have an effect-not only on them as individuals reflecting in the statistics of suburbia, but also their influence on other children.

I think, too, another problem we have in suburbia today is in the affluent society, where people are comfortably well off materially, and where we have many problems coming from emotional instability in the families, and lack of parental supervision.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I am wondering if you have covered this, I will not press you on it---I am wondering if you could give us some kind of an appraisal of the importance of having the kind of psychiatric care, and other mental health facilities and diagnosis available for young people. Have you found this in your experience and has your association found this to be of real significance and importance in treating the problem?

Mr. WHITLATCH. I think there is no underestimating the importance and help we get from these. On the other hand, I think we are always in danger of exaggerating what we can do with psychiatry and so on.

I think it is a mistake to classify too many of these problems on the basis of a "sickness model." These kids are not sick. It is an assault on them sometimes to subject them to psychiatric observation. It sometimes means a lowering of their self-esteem. They say "They think I am nuts," and this certainly does not help the one thing that they need more than anything else, which is self-esteem.

I would say we need these people, and we can get a great deal from consultation with them. Fortunately, this problem is not as prevalent as it is sometimes thought to be, and it is well that it is not, because of course this help is not available in the necessary quantities.

I think if you make a general statement to say there is not much psychiatric help or therapy for the poor, you would not be making much of an exaggeration.

But so many of these kids who present emotional disturbance, and who are in need of therapy don't necessarily need psychiatric care. The kind of therapy they need is sympathetic treatment in a warm, secure surrounding-but with the requisite controls and supervisionwhere they will have a chance to develop some stability and bringing out what they are endowed with from a native standpoint.

Mr. HURLEY. Senator, I think the way you put it is that the psychiatric report and the psychologist's report is absolutely essential if the juvenile court system is going to function properly, because without it anything you do is a guess. So once you have the report, and once you can analyze it, in light of all of the other factual background, then you know what to do. Without it, as I say, it is a guess. So it is extremely important.

I think that the closer you get this type of facility to the juvenile court system, the better the system is going to operate. And this is one of the problems that we have today. One agency may handle it over here, and then trying to get everything collected, you lose valuable time and it creates problems. So that I think that the closer you get this to the court system, and I think that the present legislation will help to do this, it is going to make it easier for the judges to do their job properly.

As I said, the big question is what to do and where to place a boy, and this gives you the answer.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Now, let me having recognized the importance of these kinds of services within our general qualification, how extensive are they in the juvenile court system across the country?

Mr. WHITLATCH. Not early extensive enough.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Could you give us at least some idea- maybe not in numbers, but could you help us on this?

Mr. WHITLATCH. In our county we have enough for diagnostic services; the services Judge Hurley is referring to greatly helps us. But insofar as treatment is concerned, it is notorious that we have little treatment, even where we need it. It has become almost a cliche among Clevelanders that we are long on diagnosis but short on treatment, which seems to make diagnosis rather futile. And I would say in our State we need many dignostic clinics.

We have at Columbus, Ohio, our capital, a bureau of juvenile research, where we may send children on a limited basis for residential observation. It takes us 2 or 3 months to get a child in there. And those of us who have clinics of our own are reluctant to use this, although we

might be able to do so at times to an advantage-but because we have a definite feeling we are depriving other counties who have no resources, no psychologists, no psychiatrists, from using this resource. So I would say there is a real dearth of this kind of clinical help.

Mr. HURLEY. I cannot speak for the other States, but in Delaware the family court, which is your main juvenile court, is without any direct diagnostic center. Sometimes we have to-if the problem is bad enough place the boy in a mental institution in order to achieve this. And, of course, this is rather an unsatisfactory procedure.

We do have a psychologist that is directly--who is an independent psychologist-not paid by the State-he is merely paid on a fee basis. This is the extent of the service that the court has.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. How important are the private organizations?

Mr. WHITLATCH. They can be very helpful. I think as I indicated in my earlier remarks, the help they give us is now very limited. As a matter of fact, we sometimes get so discouraged in referral by being turned down so frequently that we just about forget about this particular agency as a resource.

I think I have been with the juvenile court for almost 30 yearsI have seen a great change in this respect.

There was a time when we looked to the private agencies for great help. But this isn't forthcoming today. And this is particularly true in the inner city, among the poor-we are not getting this. Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Why is that?

Mr. WHITLATCH. Well, they say these families do not respond. They start out on the initial premise that you must know that you need help before they can give you help. In other words, there must be a willingness on the part of this family, and this child, to come. into their agency, and to receive this counseling.

Now, this is where we need many more public services. We are making some starts.

For example, in Cuyahoga County we have an agency called Protective Services. Incidentally, this took over a talk which had been traditionally fulfilled by a private agency the Humane Society. And I think this has been a rather uniform thing throughout the larger cities.

But here again, we have an understaffed operation. They have maybe 17 or 20 caseworkers in an agency where they ought to have 75 or a hundred. We refer children to them who are neglected. They cannot get to them, or they do not give them the proper attention. And these very children who are neglected today come to us as soon as they hit adolescence as delinquent children.

Mr. HURLEY. Senator, the problem as I see it with respect to the private and the other agencies is that of course each one is geared to do a particular job each one was a particular philosophy or a particular aim. So that when we try to become involved with them, there is no authority directing them or requiring them to do anything. Many times I feel that a hoy should be placed in a foster home for a particular reason. And I would call the social worker in, the liaison worker-what can we do with this boy?

"Judge, we just cannot do anything."

And so you sit with the problem that you cannot answer.

So that each of these agencies-you probably know the problem, the answer to that one-each one wants to do what it wants to do. Mr. WHITLATCH. Senator, may I point out for a minute that as large as this problem is today, we are just into it, because the peak of the births in the United States were the years 1956 through 1961, and only then began to diminish with any marked trend. And so these children who were born 1956 through 1961 we are going to be getting in the midseventies, and we will-we can expect a number certainly in proportion to the birth rate during those years, and probably depending upon economic and social conditions an increase-maybe simply through the sheer numbers.

And so it is not going to be until about 1980 until we begin to experience any relief by reason of a declining birth rate which went from 4,300,000 in 1961 to 3,675,000 in 1966.

Senator KENNEDY. Just one final question, relating to an earlier question about the role of the private groups and organizations.

Do you see the possibility of paroling individuals to organizations, like Big Brother, and having them bear some of this responsibility? Mr. WHITLATCH. We like to do this. We were talking about these private agencies.

Now, we have several an Cleveland-the Youth Service Bureau, Catholic Youth Counseling and so on. But here again, these are the places where our referrals must be so limited.

Now, I am on the board of the Protestant Big Brothers, and we have been struggling for ever since our creation, about 10 years ago, to become properly staffed, so that we can really serve. And so what we have been getting--this is rather typical-what we have been getting here is that they cannot take the adolescent because they do not have enough Big Brothers-and this is because of lack of recruitment-to take care of the little fellows who need the program.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Why do we have difficulty in getting the kind of individual needed? I would think this is one of the most appealing kinds of voluntary work.

Mr. WHITLATCH. It certainly is. I would say some of the other agencies I must say that the Jewish Big Brothers, and the Catholic Big Brothers have had more success than we. And this is probably due as far as we are concerned in the Protestant Church-to the fact that we do not have a strong central church organization. Such central organizations are very helpful to the Catholic and the Jewish Big Brothers.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. But as an institution, you can use the Big Brothers as a vehicle by which you can really directly help and assist and counsel these youthful offenders, can you not?

Mr. WHITLATCH. If we get people who are really sincerely interested in children, they can be helpful. But a lot of people who imagine they have this interest, to whom children have an instant appeal, they do not have the patience and toleration to stay with the job when the going gets rough. That is why you cannot do this all with volunteers. You might as well face up to it."

If you have a good volunteer program, you have to have a pretty high proportion of paid staff.

I think the Boy Scouts work very well in this regard, and they use volunteers wisely, and have them managed by paid personnel.