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ried ; if so, whether you have any children. Would you mind starting the ball rolling, Mr. Chappell ?

Mr. CHAPPELL. What do you want to know first?
Senator CLARK. How old are you?
Mr. CHAPPELL. Nineteen.
Senator CLARK. Are you married?
Senator CLARK. Lucky fellow.
How far did you go in school?

Mr. CHAPPELL. Let's say I went to my 12th year, but I was kicked out before I graduated.

Senator CLARK. Do you have a job now! Mr. CHAPPELL. Presently I am unemployed, but I am still working with the program.

Senator CLARK. Barbara, how about you?
Miss McCoy. I am 17.
Senator CLARK. Seventeen?
Miss MoCoy. Yes, and I went to the 12th grade.
Senator CLARK. Are you married?
Miss McCoy. I am not married.
Senator CLARK. That is good enough.

Mr. Brown, why don't you just answer for yourself and then we will get back to Senator Kennedy?

Mr. Brown. I went to the 12th grade, also. I am 23 years old. Senator CLARK. Are you married? Mr. Brown. Yes. Senator CLARK. Do you have any children? Mr. Brown. Yes, I have one. Senator CLARK. Thank you very much. Thank you, Senator Kennedy. Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. You are lucky, Mr. Brown. Could you tell us, Barbara, if a young person runs into trouble, where he might go in your community?

Miss McCoy. Well, I think that most of the kids that are involved in our program or know about our program, some of them might talk to one of the neighborhood youth workers or one of the NIC's, or they might talk to somebody else, and one of them will advise them to come to one of our centers. But it is very seldom they will go to an adult. If an adult tells you, you ought to go back to school and so on and so on, it does not sound the same as if somebody around your age group told you, "Look man, this is the thing," and you go ahead and do it.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Do you have any friends who have been through the juvenile court system? Could you tell us a little bit about what their impression of the court system has been?

Mr. Brown. Right.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Have any of them perhaps been to halfway houses? Could you tell us just a little bit about whether you have had any experience or know any young people who have had this kind of association !

Mr. Brown. Right. We have 20 youths involved in our program20 leaders, rather-I think roughly around 14 of them have, at one time or another, been in correctional institutions. The impression I have gotten from talking to them many times is they do not dig correc


tional institutions, because they feel they did not get anything out of them. They did not learn anything.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. These are the programs in these correctional institutions which are directed toward young people!

Mr. Brown. Right.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. They have found they are ineffective?

Mr. Brown. Right. They have worked with different programs such as the NDYP program and they have found they have not been in trouble. Some of them are working with the Community Action Training School. They have yet to be back in trouble, either. So it seems like some of these programs begin to reach them quicker than the programs that are inside the correctional institutions. It seems like they feel that by working with other young people who have been just like them, they have something in common, they would rather talk to each other. That is why I would like to expand on the question you asked Barbara about.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Yes, I wish you would do that.

Mr. Brown. In the Mount Pleasant area in Washington, these cats like to go inside the park and rap a little bit, like to play a little bit on their bongos, and they had trouble with the law. When they had trouble with the law, they did not run to any adults or downtown, they talked to some of the people in the Community Action Training School, who they knew. They came to these cats, and asked us, "What can you do to help us out?"

We talked to them, tried to work out a strategy for getting them in a park or getting them in another place in the park.

Youth will talk to another youth quicker than he will to an adult. I'm sure you know how many times your little daughter will talk to your little son quicker than they will talk to you. It's not that you don't trust adults, but you have something in common, just like you have something in common with the Senators sitting up there with you. Youths feel the same way.

I think this conference here has also proven that when you can bring youths from throughout the country, like I have met Louis, who I never met before, from New York, I have people from Chicago, from Boston-yes, from Boston. We also have people from Philadelphia who are here. For once, we youth have begun to sit down and found that we have something in common.

Senator CLARK. I am going to have to pay a lot of attention to the people from Philadelphia.

Mr. Brown. I hope you will.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. You have all mentioned that you went to school through the 12th grade. I am wondering whether, in your different schools, there were any programs that were directed toward young people who had problems. Does a student with a prohlem, have someone in school to go to who would give him counseling and guidance? Do you think this

kind of thing is effective and helpful? Miss McCoy. I think I could answer from both ends, because I was in a parochial school for 10 years, and I was in a public school for 2 my last years. We had different programs in the parochial schools, where they tried to get the parents in to see, to try to help them along with the kids. We had different workshops and things

just for the kids. If you had any problem, you did not have any trouble with going to see the guidance counselor, you could always go down and talk to them.

But when I got into the public school, like most of the time they would send you down to the guidance counselors because you did something in class you had no business doing. I guess a lot of kids feel they just cannot go down and talk to them anytime they feel like it.

Most of the public schools, they do not have adequate books or things like that. Then, when you come to school and you do not have a book or you have to go to the library every evening to try to get your homework done, you just kind of get bored.

Mr. Brown. I also had trouble in school. In fact, when I was put out, I was out for reasons, not really following orders. I was in a merchanics' class and they wanted to teach me how to take apart a 1927 car. At that particular time they were making 1964's and 1965's and now they are making 1968 Camaros. I felt this was not going to help me. I did not have anybody to talk to, like Barbara mentioned, the guidance counselor.

The most important thing in the ghetto, the most important thing to a young cat is his boys. He'll do anything for his boys, he'll follow them, he'll go down for them. IIe can relate to them. Now, the things such as the Community Action Training School, such as the program in New York, as people will be testifying to today, have proven that they have given kids a chance to get together on an organized scale and talk about their problems.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Let me just ask you a question.

Among your youth groups, your associates, and among young people in your communities, is it, in the vernacular, "with it” to be law abiding, and try to do the right thing, or is the great thing to try to see what you can get away with? What do you find is the attitude of the young people now? Could you give us some idea on this? I know it is a very general kind of question, but I think you know what I am trying to get to.

Senator CLARK. There is a great, great $64,000 word called motivation. I think we are very much interested-at least I am-in trying to get at the motivation of young people for the particular purpose of trying to relate.

Miss McCoy. I think that most of the kids who are in youth groups, involved, I do not think that a lot of them, they don't necessarily look for trouble, but they do get into trouble sometimes. I do not think it is something they look for. A lot of them feel since they come in contact with us that we have been, you know, telling them about different things, a lot of them feel there are other ways besides having to rob or steal. But when the push comes to show you have to get out here and rob and steal anyway to provide for yourself.

Another thing I can say is that most of them, they have been given opportunity to talk to people that they have never talked to before and tell them about things, like down at USES and civil service, to tell them about things that they really, you know, how they feel about different things like that. I think they have been able to change the minds of a lot of different people because they have, you know, go-toschool kids came and put on their Sunday best to go and see Mr. Soand-so. They are out here every day and they are working hard, you


know, like everybody else, and they have been in trouble before and they know what it is. Mr. CHAPPELL. In my area, you

know-I won't


have some who look for trouble and then you have some who just bump into it. But the thing I have actually noticed over the summer, the youth in the Fort Greene area have very little disturbances as far as fights or riots. In that area there has not been a riot yet.

You think when there are jobs down there in New York City or a training program going on, or youth development program going on, it catches their interest. The main thing about youth, they like, you know, to do things with their hands. They like to be creative. They like to have the feeling that I'm doing something for myself, by myself. You feel better, you know, inside, when you do things like this.

OK, but let's look on the other side. If there are no jobs or, let's say, youth doesn't have a job and he has no money in his pockets, I know the first thing that will come to his mind. He is going to stand on the corner until he sees somebody pass. He's going to hit him over the head or, if it's a female, he's going to grab her pocketbook. I think about this, because I always think about my mother when she comes home from work. I know what I'm going to do if somebody grabs my mother's pocketbook or hits her over the head.

So I think, you know, give us a break, give us a job.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Do you think this is one of the best, most effective ways of meeting a number of problems in the cities, especially the problems of riots, as far as the young people are concerned, these youth development programs, jobs, greater demonstration of care and concern for young people?

Mr. CHAPPELL. I always believe in this. The best way to stop a deadly disease is to kill it before it starts. Just like they say, OK, we'll put money into correctional institutions. What good is that doing? The person already has a record. This ain't doing him no good. Stop him while he is a potential delinquent. Get a program out in the area so he won't go out in the streets and, as we put in our language, hustle. That is a bad thing. It hurts him in the long run.

Senator CLARK. Will the Senator yield for a moment?
Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Yes.

Senator CLARK. In my opinion, as in yours, this whole problem of juvenile delinquency is very complex. It has many aspects. Would you say the single, most important thing of all is to get jobs for young people, or am I oversimplifying it?

Mr. CHAPPELL. It is not just jobs. For dropouts, I would say training programs so they can develop themselves. Just to give a dropout a job is not going to do any good. Let's say I was dropped out of school and you put me in a job I knew nothing about. You know how long I would be on that job? As soon as you turned your back, I bet they would fire me, because I don't know nothing.

Senator Clark. You think training is most important?

Senator CLARK. Then, when you get through training, there had better be a job, had there not?

Mr. CHIAPPELL. Money, that is the thing about it. There are many good training programs, but they are not recognized by corporation's in the different areas, and everything. So you know, a youth feels this


way: After I go through the training, what do I have to assure me that I'll get a job?

Senator CLARK. Now, if you had on-the-job training from a corporation, then you would be pretty sure when you got through the training that you would have a job, would you not?

Mr. CHAPPELL. Definitely.
Senator CLARK. What do you think, Barbara ?

Miss McCoy. I think it is better to have on-the-job training than to have a training center because there is really no guarantee.

Senator CLARK. So this requires the cooperation of private industry, does it not?

Miss McCoy. Yes.
Senator CLARK. What do you say, Marshall ?

Mr. Brown. I agree with Barbara and also with Louis that in order to combat juvenile delinquency, you're going to have to have jobs. But jobs youths themselves would like to participate in, that they feel can be meaningful for them. Lots of times, to give them jobs, you say, there are 50,000 jobs this year. Well, maybe we don't want to sweep no streets. Maybe we feel we are not much qualified to sweep streets. In fact, I would say that the potential this country has lost inside the ghetto is just ridiculous. We have many people inside our communities who have so much potential, who can sing or dance. You take Sammy Davis, Jr.-vou should see the kids we have in our programs, three times better than him.

You know, the potential is so beautiful, but it is lost.
Senator CLARK. Thank you, Senator Kennedy.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Marshall, I would like to get any reaction or response you might have on whether you think there is real reason, or, as Senator Clark put it, motivation for young people to obey the law now in these ghetto areas unless they see some kind of opportunity to participate meaningfully in the society which those laws represent.

Mr. Brown. I did not under the question, excuse me.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. The young people you come in contact with, do you think they want to do the right thing if the opportunity is available to them? For example, is working through youth development programs, and obeying the law accepted, or is it more popular today in the ghetto to be with it,” by trying to see what one can get away

with? Mr. Brown. No, I think the ghetto youths are no different than any other youths. They do not want to break the laws. It is just that circumstances and conditions force them to break the law.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. They would work in these youth development programs, you believe, if the opportunities were provided for them?

Mr. Brown. Yes, I would definitely say so. In fact, it is proven just by us being here, this conference being here, the fact that youths want to do something. That is why we are here, why we are testifying.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Thank you. Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Marshall Brown, Louis Chappell, Barbara McCoy. We appreciate your testimony.

Our next panel is Cynthia Boston, who comes from Boston; Bruce Daniels, from Philadelphia ; and Roland Britt, from Philadelphia.

Will you come forward, please?

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