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necessary, you know, especially if you are a new organization just trying to phase out something in the area such as mine down in Brooklyn, in Fort Greene. There still is really no youth development program down there.

So that means if we want to start a youth development program, we will not

Senator CLARK. Pardon me. Do you live in Bedford-Stuyvesant? Mr. CHAPPELL. No, I live in the Fort Greene section. That means we would not be able to ask for JD money because it says you have to be in, let us say, progress for 2 years or more before you can apply for this type of money. Yet Fort Greene needs this type of program. So why should we settle? That is another thing the House has passed. Then again, there is something about any organization who needs JD funds cannot receive money from the Juvenile Delinquency Control Act.

Senator CLARK. Let me interrupt you for a just a moment. We have been joined by Senator Claiborne Pell, of Rhode Island, who is also a member of the subcommittee. Needless to say, I am delighted he is here.

Will you proceed, Mr. Chappell?

Mr. CHAPPELL. As I was saying, the House bill says that all organizations, agencies who receive OEO money will be excluded, let's say, from receiving money from the JD bill. We feel that this is also wrong, because when you ask for OEO money, with this type of money, all you can really do is, let's say, touch the groundwork of a decent program.

So right there and then, we know that JD money is needed to carry the program on further.

Let's say that we work for the career development training for potential juveniles or juvenile delinquents, and we ask for OEO money first. Let's say they gave us $90,000 for a year-round program. What can we do? We would hire a staff, paperwork, maybe get a few of the machines and stuff that we need. But the main thing about it, we would not really be able to reach all the people that we want to reach. That is where the JD money comes in. It helps you, say, reach the people in your community better. It brings out your type of program further and better, so, you know, so they can see and understand it.

Now, it also says that in the appropriation in the House bill, they will appropriate $25 million, but only for the fiscal year 1968, but only with 1 year's authorization. It takes 1 year to get a good program started, at least, if not 2. That means after 1 year you have to evaluate, start all over again. This is what they are saying.

I hate to say this, sitting up here, but I have to say it because this is the way I feel. It seems to me this kind of plays a trick on us, because it seems they are saying, "Well, we'll authorize it for 1 year, and after we get elected again, you know, we'll do anything we want to." That is what it seems they are saying to us. I do not like it, and I really do not think it should be that way.

If anything, something like the JD bill-we know there is always going to be juvenile delinquency, no matter what year it is-should be a permanent bill. That is No. 1.

But for the time being, I'll go along with that 5-year authorization. There are other points I'll bring out later.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Mr. Chappell. That was a very cogent and very coherent presentation.

Who is next? Miss McCoy ?


Miss McCoy. I feel that the youth of Washington feel that youth involvement, the need for it has not been realized by adults or a lot of professionals. We feel that youth involvement is necessary because, in most cases, youth can relate better to youth than any adult or professional group.

I represent the neighborhood development youth program.
Senator CLARK. Barbara, where do you come from?

Miss McCoy. Washington.

Senator CLARK. What part?

Miss McCoy. Northwest. I represent the neighborhood development youth program. We have 10 centers, 10 poverty target areas in Washington we work out of and we give youth a chance to get involved, disadvantaged youths who ordinarily would not get involved in programs or different affairs, community affairs that affect them.

NDYP began in August of 1966. The main purpose of the program was to try to get these youth a formal voice in the programs that will involve and affect them. In the past year we feel that we have helped in the prevention and control and rehabilitation of juvenile delinquents because some of our staff and most of the kids that we work with in the community are juvenile delinquents or have been delinquent or they are on the verge of becoming delinquent.

Since they have come in contact with us, they have not been in trouble as much, some not at-11 since we have been contacting them. We have made a number of accomplishments, and all of them— they are not real great accomplishments, because a lot of them are nonmaterial. By "nonmaterial" I mean things like talking people into going back to school. It is not something that you can write down on paper that people really see a big change in, but it is something big to us. Maybe you stopped them from doing a lot of things that are really uncalled for.

We have also made some material accomplishments. We sent three community youths to Wilberforce University in Ohio. We made negotiations with them.

We try to establish police and community relations with youth in various parts of the city. Also, we feel that youth representation is necessary on boards to plan programs for different centers that involve youth, because a lot of times in the planning process, a person does not know everything that is necessary. We feel that we can give them ideas of what kinds of programs we need and how they should run, different things like that.

The main areas that we are concerned with are education, recreation, employment, police and community relations, and legal services. We are working with youths primarily between the ages of 10 and 19. We have some older, but those are primarily who we work with.

The whole NDYP has involved about 2,200 youths with our program.

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Senator CLARK. What do you think about the bill, Barbara? Miss McCoy. We feel that we should-I think the bill, the administration bill, is the best bill to have passed, because the House bill knocked everything concerning youth involvement, just about everything, except for correctional institutions. They would give moneys under these and a lot of kids that are in correctional institutions, I feel they do not need to be in there. I feel that most of them need to be in the community. They need to have somebody outside working with them. That way they will not feel locked up, or trapped, whatever you call it, because I do think they are rehabilitating them the way they should.

I also feel that the House bill is good because it provides money for youth under different things. Under "general" in title III, it says that the Secretary is authorized to appoint a board to advise him on things. We feel that this is necessary, being necessary, because youth should be able to be on these boards and advise him, because an adult cannot tick like a youth does and cannot tell him what youth is thinking. The House bill, the bill that the House has passed, we are all definitely against.

Senator CLARK. You said a moment ago, and I think you probably misspoke yourself, that you felt the House bill had some good provisions in it.

Miss McCoy. No, I meant the administration bill.

Senator CLARK. You meant the administration bill?

Miss McCor. Yes.

I think just about everybody is in support of the administration bill as far as the types of programs that we have.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Barbara. Is there anything else you feel you want to tell us?

Miss McCor. No.

Senator CLARK. Now, we'll hear from Marshall Brown.


Mr. BROWN. My name is Marshall Brown, from Washington, D.C. I work with the Community Action Training School. Myself, like Miss McCoy and Louis from New York, I feel like them on the HEW bill when submitted to the Senate. I feel one thing is wrong; the House bill says there will be no funds at all allotted for planning. I think that is kind of ridiculous, because I see around me every day that Congress is appropriating money for everybody else to plan programs. I think young people need money to plan their programs such as the research departments, and what have you. I think we do need money to plan for it. I think without money to plan for it, we will be very much ineffective.

Where the House talks about more money for correctional institutions, I do not think this is really what is needed. I think in the State of California, it proved it. They are supposed to have the best correctional places going on out there, and 70 percent of the people who leave usually return right back.

Senator CLARK. You think that there ought to be more emphasis on prevention of delinquency and less on cure?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I definitely do. I feel that you have to have something set up to prevent it, such as the school I belong to, the Community Action Training School. I would say roughly that of 20 people involved in our program, 15 have been to correctional institutions at one time or the other. Since they have been involved in the program, they have not returned. What they are doing now, they are going out and preventing other people from going into correctional institutions and keeping them out. I think programs like this are doing a lot to prevent juvenile delinquency, not such things as the House asked for.

Also, I feel that there should be provision for youth involvement in the different types of programs. Without youth involvement in it, youth is just not going to go for it. I, for one, feel that for the first time in many years, I have been given a chance to express my ideas, to make sound judgments, to give opinions, and also to make decisions.

This makes me feel much more responsible, also much more mature. I think this is what a lot of programs have done. I think this has to be clearly understood.

I think another thing of it is that some ideas that might have come out of a school like ours, the Community Action Training School, we feel that where so-called juvenile delinquency-maybe we should have kids teach the teachers. We feel a lot of the teachers who come to teach in the school system are unequipped. This is the kind of program that maybe could teach a young lady, say from Vassar, who is not used to the ghetto, teach her during the summer how to teach in our schools. I think this is the kind of program we need. I feel when you cut out the OEO program, you are cutting everybody's program down.

Senator CLARK. Do you think there is a very close connection between OEO and juvenile delinquency programs?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I do. I am in full support of most of OEO's programs. I feel they have to be supported. My interpretation of it from the House bill is that a lot of these programs, the only programs that are going to be left are the programs that are 2 years before. That is like the welfare department or Boy Scouts, you know. We are just not interested in those types of things. OEO came along and gave us some programs that we liked, that we can be involved in. All of a sudden, people are going to tell us they are going to take it away. This takes a lot of our hope away from us. We do not need this type of thing. Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Mr. Brown.

I am going to ask Senator Pell if he has any questions.
Senator PELL. No questions, thank you.

Senator CLARK. Senator Kennedy?

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. I appreciate your comments and the comparisons of the respective bills. I think you have demonstrated a very effective understanding of the nature of the legislation, and I think your comments on it are particularly helpful.

I am just wondering if I could ask you some general questions about some of the problems of youth. Whoever cares to respond to them, I would welcome your response.

What I am interested in is whether in your respective communities, when a young person gets into trouble, whom does he go and see? If they do run into some kind of problem, or if they have some kind of trouble, is there any group in your different communities that a young person might go and see?

Mr. CHAPPELL. In Brooklyn, Fort Greene, usually when a youth gets in trouble, somebody from our program has always been there to either catch what has happened or to get the story before it spreads so far that it is unrealistic. There has been one or two instances down in our area where, because of our program boys, let's say, have been got off of serious charges such as felonious assault. There were several down near Fort Greene about 2 months ago, where a boy got in trouble with a cop because he saw a cop kick his mother and he went and hit the cop. Now, only because we had a photographer there in our program taking pictures this boy got off and the policeman was dismissed.

So I mean, yes, there is somebody to come to. They always go back to that youth development program that is in that area only because, like Marshall said before, youth relate to youth a whole lot better than they would to an adult. They feel like they can express themselves in a much better way, and they can get it off their chests quicker. I can see that if this boy had been taken away by a cop, how he felt, or if he had tried to tell his story to another, strange man, or even to his father, he might have felt different.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. How well known in your community is your organization? Are all the young people in your community aware of this? Does it have the confidence of the young people, and is it an effective force for work on youth development?

Mr. CHAPPELL. For the short time the program has been in progress, I would say there are a good 75, we have reached about a good 75 percent of the youths in our area. In Fort Greene, this is amazing. If you know anything about Fort Greene, it is a large area to try to reach youth in.

Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. What sort of programs do they do?

Mr. CHAPPELL. The type of programs we run during the summer anyway, was many phases. First of all, we had ourselves a community. development center where the females of the program learned how to use typewriters, the IBM electric typewriters, calculating machines, adding machines. The fellows, they were learning how to fix them. They enjoyed this, because they liked it. It was something they could use their hands with, you know, and they learned.

Many other fellows who went back to school, some of them would drop out, and they went back to school just so they could keep up with this type of training.

There were a couple of girls who were learning how to type who got after-school jobs because they were in this program.

And also, as I told you before, we had a course where we taught fellows how to use cameras, where they actually learned how to take pictures and develop them themselves. Like I say, it helped them into it, they liked it, it seemed fun to them.

Senator KENNEDY of Masschusetts. Is the program itself pretty well supported by the young people in the community?


Senator KENNEDY of Massachusetts. Barbara, would you like to tell us a little bit about your situation?

Senator CLARK. If I may interrupt, I think it would be helpful if each of you were willing to tell us how old you are, how far you went in school, whether you have jobs at the moment, whether you are mar

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