Mr. THOMAS. Perhaps that is easier living than going to the South Pole.

We thank you so much, gentlemen. A lot of good luck to all of you. We may not give you all the money you want but we will be pretty good to you.

Let us come back at 1 o'clock this afternoon.

(Afternoon session)

MONDAY, AUGUST 14, 1961.

MARITIME ADMINISTRATION

WITNESSES

THOMAS E. STAKEM, ACTING ADMINISTRATOR

RICHARD P. GODWIN, ACTING CHIEF, OFFICE OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

P. G. ASHER, CHIEF, OFFICE OF BUDGET AND MANAGEMENT PERCY R. PECK, ATTORNEY ADVISER

JOHN H, PRINCE, DEPUTY EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY

OSCAR H. NIELSON, DEPARTMENTAL BUDGET OFFICER

Mr. THOMAS. Gentlemen, will the committee please come to order. We have with us this afternoon our friends from the Maritime Administration. We have our distinguished friend, the Administrator, an oldtimer in the business, Mr. Stakem, a good administrator; and Mr. Godwin, the Acting Chief of the Office of Research and Development; Mr. Asher, Chief of the Office of Budget and Management; Judge Peck, the attorney adviser; Mr. Nielson, the departmental budget officer; and Mr. John H. Prince, the deputy executive assistant to the Secretary.

MARITIME TRAINING

Mr. Administrator, I note that in House Document No. 217 you are requesting language under Maritime Training which reads as follows: Reimbursement may be made to the appropriation for the current fiscal year for "Maritime training," for expenses in support of activities financed from the appropriations for "Research and development" and "Ship construction."

COST FOR RELOCATING AND OPERATING ATOMIC REACTOR SIMULATOR

In looking over your justifications last night I could not find any place where you told us what it would cost to relocate the simulator or what the operating cost would be. You want to charge it up to training and what else, to get out of Mr. Campbell's hair? Mr. STAKEM. Research and development will pay part of the operational cost.

Mr. THOMAS. What will this language cost us?

Mr. STAKEM. First of all, a little background on this simulator. It was built under competitive bidding by Westinghouse for use in connection with the training of the crew of the NS Savannah. It was located and is now located at Lynchburg, Va. It was designed by Babcock & Wilcox.

Mr. ROONEY. Will the chairman yield? For the record, what is a simulator?

Mr. STAKEM. It is a nuclear reactor simulator built upon two highly versatile analog computers. If you want a technical explanation. Mr. Godwin can give it to you.

Mr. ROONEY. I was more interested in a physical explanation, what it looks like.

Mr. GODWIN. Well, normally we build a reactor prototype in the desert in Idaho. You can also electronically simulate a reactor. This unit we are talking about is physically the same as the control panel on the ship. It is identical in every way except instead of having a nuclear plant behind it, it is mocked up electronically. Trainees sit at these controls.

Mr. ROONEY. It is the same size?

Mr. GODWIN. It is a duplicate as far as the control panel is concerned.

it.

Mr. THOMAS. What did it cost originally?

Mr. STAKEM. In the neighborhood of half a million dollars to build

Mr. THOMAS. What would it cost to take it down and reassemble it? Mr. STAKEM. $80,000.

NEED FOR REQUESTED LANGUAGE

Mr. THOMAS. That has already been appropriated for?

Mr. STAKEM. That is in the research and development fund. We need a language change. Under our present Kings Point appropriation we cannot train anybody but cadets and we anticipate about 50 percent of the use of the simulator will be to train additional crews and as computers for other purposes. So there should be some way of taking out of our research and development funds, funds beyond what it takes to train cadets at Kings Point.

Mr. THOMAS. Is this whole $80,000 charged to research and development?

Mr. STAKEM. It is all research and development funds.

Mr. THOMAS. $80,000?

Mr. STAKEM. Yes.

Mr. THOMAS. And that has already been appropriated and you have the money?

Mr. STAKEM. Yes.

Mr. THOMAS. How much will it cost you under maritime training? Mr. GODWIN. The first class, the instruction cost will run about $95,000 for a third crew.

Mr. THOMAS. On an annual basis?

Mr. GODWIN. On a course basis. We need a replacement crew to take care of the attrition on the Savannah and this will cost about $95,000.

Mr. THOMAS. What is the $95,000 made up of? Salaries?

Mr. GODWIN. The great bulk is salaries. It breaks down about $54,000 for Kings Point salaries and the other deals with field training and housing of the crew.

Mr. THOMAS. Where is the justification for this language? I do not find it in my book.

Mr. STAKEM. The only language change we need is to enable us to reimburse Kings Point on the basis of their expenditures in the training use of the simulator beyond the training of cadets. There is nothing to prevent us from using the simulator at Kings Point for the training of cadets but we cannot train anybody but cadets there. Mr. THOMAS. All you are looking for is authority to spend $95,000. The Comptroller General says you cannot spend it?

Mr. ASHER. This is not an additional appropriation for $95,000.

ANALYSIS OF COST FOR CREW TRAINING

Mr. THOMAS. I know, but you are seeking authority to spend it. Tell us what you will use the $95,000 for.

Mr. ASHER. We could spend it under existing authority, however, it would require a duplication of staff to do it. We would have to put on an additional special staff in the Academy to train this crew. We think in the interest of economy we should be able to use one staff for both purposes. The authority we wish is a modification of our language to permit flexibility so that we can utilize one staff for both purposes and be permitted to reimburse the Academy from the "Research and development" appropriation for what it would cost the Academy to do this work.

Mr. THOMAS. You mean your original investment of $80,000 was charged to maritime research and development and not to the Academy?

Mr. ASHER. All the money we are talking about has already been appropriated.

Mr. THOMAS. To whom?

Mr. ASHER. To the research and development appropriation of the Maritime Administration.

Mr. THOMAS. And not to the Academy?

Mr. ASHER. Not to the Academy.

Mr. ROONEY. Do I correctly understand that you have the money to move the simulator from Lynchburg to Kings Point?

Mr. ASHER. Yes.

Mr. ROONEY. And in the current fiscal year you will not need any additional money to operate it either by cadets or a crew?

Mr. ASHER. That is correct.

Mr. THOMAS. Now break down the $95,000. I could not find anything in the justifications showing whether the money was appropriated to Maritime or the Academy or anything. Tell us what will be the cost on an annual basis.

Mr. GODWIN. $42,000 or $43,000 is for the teaching staff for the Academy personnel.

Mr. THOMAS. How many people are involved?

Mr. GODWIN. The equivalent of 3%; part time of one instructor and three full-time instructors.

Mr. THOMAS. Is that on a 12-month basis or a 3-month basis? Mr. GODWIN. This is calculated for a class of about 10 months' duration. We are not presently planning for a fourth crew replace

ment.

Mr. THOMAS. Are you spending 1962 funds here?
Mr. GODWIN. It is carryover from 1961, actually.

Mr. ASHER. The research and development appropriation is a no-year appropriation. Additional funds are appropriated for 1962 and there are also carryover funds from 1961 which would be involved in this.

Mr. THOMAS. It will cost the Academy of their funds $95,000 will it not?

Mr. ASHER. No.

Mr. THOMAS. It still will be Maritime funds?

Mr. GODWIN. That is correct.

Mr. ASHER. Both of these appropriations are Maritime funds. The funds for operation of the Academy are appropriated to the Maritime Administration.

Mr. THOMAS. The language says:

Reimbursement may be made to the appropriation for the current fiscal year for "Maritime training," for expenses in support of activities financed from the appropriations "Research and development" and "Ship construction."

There is your language.

Mr. ASHER. We have two separate appropriations, one for maritime training, which finances the Academy, and one for research and development, which is the fund that finances the research and development program of the Maritime Administration.

Mr. THOMAS. They are two separate and distinct items?

Mr. ASHER. They are two separate and distinct appropriation items. The purpose of the language change is to permit reimbursement between these appropriations. No additional funds are requested or required. It is merely an authority to reimburse between two appropriations of the Maritime Administration.

Mr. THOMAS. How do you break down your $95,000 between the two accounts?

Mr. ASHER. The $95,000 will all be paid from the research and development appropriation, but it will be reimbursed to the maritime training appropriation, which will make the initial expenditure.

Mг. THOMAS. Has the appropriation been made to that account for 1962?

Mr. ASHER. Yes, sir. Research and development has the money for this purpose.

Mr. THOMAS. I am talking about maritime training?

Mr. ASHER. Not for this purpose, no, sir.

Mr. THOMAS. Then they will be in here for a supplemental?

Mr. STAKEM. Unless this language is allowed by the Congress it will probably mean that we cannot use Kings Point people to train this third crew.

Mr. THOMAS. The crews you will train, are they cadets?

Mr. STAKEM. We have authority now to train the cadets with the use of the simulator, but we do not have authority to train anybody who is not a student at Kings Point. We think in the long pull this simulator at Kings Point will serve three useful purposes, really. (1) It will assist in the training of cadets entering the merchant marine; (2) it can be used to train the crews for the Savannah and other nuclear ships coming along; and (3) the computer system can be used in connection with other research projects. We think it is advantageous to our programs across the board to have this language change.

Mr. THOMAS. What part will you spend on private-industry people?

Mr. GODWIN. The present estimate for this purpose is $28,000. These are people with special skills who are brought in, such as physicists. The designs of the nuclear plant are by Babcock & Wilcox Co. and the Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

Mr. ROONEY. But there is no money involved in the present request before the committee; is that correct?

Mr. STAKEM. That is correct.

Mr. GODWIN. This crew could be trained at Lynchburg.

Mr. THOMAS. Where does Oak Ridge get into it?

Mr. GODWIN. They have physicists, et cetera. This is the third crew we are talking about.

Mr. THOMAS. You do not mean you will train some scientists at Oak Ridge to run a ship?

Mr. GODWIN. No. We are hopefully going to get seamen to run the reactor. There will be some teachers from Oak Ridge and some from Babcock & Wilcox and some from Westinghouse.

Mr. THOMAS. And $45,000 is for instructors at the Academy?
Mr. GODWIN. Yes.

Mr. THOMAS. How many are involved there?

Mr. GODWIN. Three and a half.

Mr. THOMAS. At the Academy?

Mr. GODWIN. Yes.

Mr. ROONEY. You said $43,000, did you not?

Mr. GODWIN. It is $42,996.

Mr. THOMAS. Where is the rest?

Mr. GODWIN. We have a stenographer-clerk at $3,600; a laboratory technician at $3,190; a porter at $2,210; food and linen for trainees, $6,435; travel of staff from reactor sites, visits to Washington, Yorktown, Camden, and Chicago, $4,855; and other field trips

Mr. THOMAS. How much do you charge for subsistence? Why do you not give us all that information in your justifications?

Mr. GODWIN. We can provide that.

Mr. THOMAS. But you did not.

Mr. STAKEM. Congressman, in reading this justification I would say it has left something to be desired.

Mr. THOMAS. That is a very modest understatement.

If we put a limitation of $60,000, can you operate with that? Mr. ROONEY. But they already have the money, Mr. Chairman. Mr. THOMAS. I know, but we can put a limitation. Did you not say you have subsistence in there?

Mr. GODWIN. Food and linen for trainees who live at Kings Point. These are union people and not the cadets.

Mr. THOMAS. How many will there be?

Mr. GODWIN. Fifteen trainees for 26 weeks.

Mr. THOMAS. Where are the trainees from?

Mr. GODWIN. These are men in the merchant marine, licensed seamen, or licensed engineering officers, I should say, and they are hired through the unions by States Marine Lines, Inc., and brought in. Mr. THOMAS. Private industry people?

Mr. GODWIN. To the extent they are hired by States Marine, that is true.

Mr. THOMAS. Why cannot they pay the travel and living costs? Mr. GODWIN. States Marine did pay certain training costs for the first crew. The later crews they have not.