Senator HILL. One other question about that. I want to ask a question as to page 3 of that bill, line 6 down to the end:

The Commissioner of Education is also authorized to accept, use, and dispose of funds, equipment, and facilities donated for purposes of the conference, and, to the extent consistent with such purposes, to use the same in accordance with the wishes of the donors.

As you know, in the past we have had efforts made to get propaganda into our public schools and into our public-school systems. Some of those efforts, incidentally, have been successful.

What do you visualize about the importance of the wishes of the donors, Mrs. Hobby?

Secretary HOBBY. Dr. Brownell, will you answer that question? Dr. BROWNELL. I think we have tried to cover that by saying "to the extent consistent with such purposes." In other words, we would leave it to the judgment of those in charge of the conference as to whether that is consistent with the purposes. In other words, we didn't want to be committed to have to use any donations on terms that were not consistent with the purposes of the conference. We wanted to guard against just the thing you mention.

Senator HILL. Who do you visualize might be donors?

Dr. BROWNELL. Foundations.

Senator HILL. Would you think it would cover the ground if you used the word "foundations"?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I suppose it would. I don't know, there might be some generous soul that would want to do it.

Senator HILL. You think about that a little bit.

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes, I will be very glad to. We had thought in addition to foundations that there might be some resources, some of our educational institutions, which might donate the services of members of the staff without pay, which would be very helpful.

Senator HILL. While you speak about donating services, I notice in your cooperative research bill, Senate 2856, you speak of jointly financed cooperative arrangements with State educational agencies, local school systems comma-and public and nonprofit educational institutions and organizations for the conduct of research.

Would that take in institutions, say, like Harvard, Princeton, Yale? Dr. BROWNELL. I have always thought of Harvard and Yale as nonprofit educational institutions.

Senator HILL. The difficulty is, where you have that comma, and then no comma between "public" and "nonprofit," I don't know whether that word "public" modifies the words "educational institutions" as well as "nonprofit" the way it was written, whether they are together.

Dr. BROWNELL. It was not the intent to limit that way. If a comma would make it clearer, I would say put in the comma.

Senator HILL. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman; you have been most patient.

Senator COOPER. I know that we have been appreciative of Senator Hill's questions and his comments.

Because of some of the remarks that have been made, I think as chairman I would like to make a short statement.

First, I would like to say that I believe that the field which we are discussing is as important, if not more important, than any other

subject that we could be considering in Congress. I have always felt so because I think it is certainly the inherent right of every child to have an equal opportunity, and I think particularly today in our position that it is very much more important.

When I was here before in 1947, the date Senator Hill mentioned, I joined with Senator Taft and others in the introduction of the Federal aid for education bill which would have been direct aid to teachers, the payment of teachers' salaries.

Last year I introduced a Federal aid for construction bill. I think it must be said that with respect to Federal aid to education bill, that was before the Congress 6 or 7 years in one form or another. It passed the Senate twice. I don't think it ever passed the House, did it, Senator Hill?

Senator HILL. You are correct, sir.

Senator UPTON. What Congress did it pass?

Senator COOPER. 80th Congress, I think. It passed the Senate, and I think it passed the 81st Congress.

Senator HILL. It passed in the Senate in the 79th Congress and then the 80th Congress.

Senator COOPER. You are correct. It was vigorously opposed in the House, as I remember, reading the debates, and also vigorously opposed in the Senate. I am sure Senator Hill would agree with me from his knowledge of his own State and other Members of the Senate that in the States themselves there is a diversity of opinion between the sectarian and nonsectarian groups between a great many people preferring Federal control.

The fact that somehow the States could not and the people of the States did not influence and/or direct the Members of Congress is so evident that there is not the complete opinion in the States that these measures ought to have.

I would gather that one of the purposes of holding these conferences is trying to get a firmer understanding, a better understanding, of these measures among people of the States, is that correct?

Secretary HOBBY. Perfectly correct, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. I remember last year in my own State we voted on a constitutional amendment to amend to provide a better provision on State funds. We had a provision in the Constitution which had been in effect, I believe, a hundred years. Yet with the great need there, it was a great battle to secure a popular vote on that amendment which I believe indicates the difference you have in the States. I believe there is a real philosophical difference in approach, Senator Hill. There are a great many of us who believe in certainly the advancement of these measures. There are many people, though, who believe that it should be initiated by the Federal Government and should be imposed by the Federal Government. We know that. There are others who are against any kind of measure. There are others who believe, I think, that we should march forward in a parallel action by States and by the Federal Government.

I think we cannot forget that in the courts; it has been generally held throughout our history that education is primarily the responsibility of local government. The fear that the Federal Government will assume the initiative and control has been one of the reasons we have not been able to get these measures, and after all these years we stand here at the beginning of this Congress with no action in these fields.

I repeat, I assume that the purpose of these bills is trying to mobilize a better opinion in the States.

Secretary HOBBY. Mr. Chairman, I wish I could have said it that

well.

Senator CooPER. I am afraid that I didn't state it well.

I will say this, in the discussion of Federal aid to education bills, the Congress assumed that it knew the need, and it knew the resources of the State, and it developed legislation which it thought would meet the obligations of both the Congress and the Federal Government and impose larger obligations on the States.

In line with Senator Hill's questions as to why we cannot move along now-and I will talk about that in a minute-you have stated the need in the field of construction. Do you have the same knowledge, as to the abilities of the States, to assume their share of this tremendous obligation of some 10 or 12 billion dollars to meet school construction needs? Do you have that information of what the States can do?

Dr. BROWNELL. We do not have comparable information in regard to what the States can do or could do if they, for instance, took care of the reassessments, if they modified their school districts and used other kinds of resources; so the answer, Senator, is that we do not have comparable information in regard to what the States can do to what we have in regard to where their needs are.

Senator COOPER. Is it one of the purposes of these conferences to attempt to develop in each State what the State itself can do and the local districts can do toward meeting their share of this 10 or 12 billion dollars of necessary funds?

Dr. BROWNELL. That is right, to identify the problems that they face and to get that data together.

Now, I think it should be said that the development of that information won't grow out of the discussion of the conference. It is the preparation for the conference which we feel is extremely important, of these people putting in enough time to get all those data together.

Senator COOPER. I must say this, that I think it is the outstanding need of the country, and I must say that I have been disappointed, too-I wasn't disappointed-that we didn't move off on some program, recognizing what I have just developed, however, that despite all the efforts of the past years, there is no program now in these fields, other than emergency programs.

Do you think it is advisable, good, that at the same time that these meetings and conferences are moving forward with the States that this committee should hold its hearings upon the school construction bills and move forward, too, as best we can to develop the information and to attempt to develop a bill?

Secretary HOBBY. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would certainly say yes. Senator HILL. May I ask a question? But you would not have us act on them?

Secretary HOBBY. Senator, I would not presume to suggest to you or to the chairman of this committee what kind of legislation you act upon.

Senator HILL. If we passed a bill in the Senate, and the House passed it, which finally comes down to the President for his action, I am sure he would lean very heavily on your advice in the matter.

Secretary HOBBY. I think you compliment me far beyond my due.

Senator HILL. I compliment you first for who you are and what you are, and then I compliment you for the fact shat you are the Secretary of Health, Education, and Public Welfare.

Senator COOPER. The committee, of course, will decide what its action will be in this. I must say for the Department of Education that I have no doubt that they are sincerely moving forward in this program. We must face the fact that it is not sufficient.

Senator UPTON. The distinguished Senator from Alabama has aroused my curiosity, even though he may not have stimulated my intelligence. The emergency which we are discussing seems to have been of long duration. I am prompted to inquire what planning you found in your Department when you took over here a short time ago, what plans you found to meet this emergency.

Secretary HOBBY. I can speak to a part of it, Senator Upton, and ask Dr. Brownell to comment. There was money provided for a survey. As a matter of fact, out of that survey is where we got much of the information that was given here this morning.

The last time I inquired 11 States had not completed their surveys. They may have completed them by this time. I could wish that we had gotten more complete information on the kind of thing that we were talking about here this morning. Had we gotten more complete information, I believe we would have been able to have answered the chairman's question as to just exactly what the fiscal capacities of the State and local school boards might be. Is that a fair answer, Dr. Brownell?

Dr. BROWNELL. I think so.

Secretary HOBBY. Would you like to pick up and say what else you found in the Office of Education when you came in?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I would like to say I found one thing this school-construction program and operation maintenance for federally affected areas.

That is a program which began in 1950, I believe it was, to appropriate funds for the construction of school buildings and for the operation and maintenance of schools in these federally affected areas. The Federal Government has, through that program, expended several hundred million dollars on school construction, operation, and maintenance there. This survey of building needs-the Federal Government had appropriated $3 million, I believe, for that one which was conducted through the 48 States.

You, I believe, have received copies of the preliminary reports. The materials are being completed-compiled and completed-for the final report on that at the present time. Those were the two major parts of a definite program that I found, Senator.

Senator UPTON. Did you find any comprehensive plan for meeting this emergency?

Secretary HOBBY. I think I would have to say "no" to that.

Senator UPTON. You are now proposing to take the steps to develop such a plan?

Secretary HOBBY. That is right.

Senator UPTON. And your planning is to extend down to the State and local levels?

Secretary HOBBY. I would say that it begins there because that is where the responsibility for operating schools lies.

Senator UPTON. I am not familiar with the procedure here in Washington, having come here recently. Is it a novelty to plan before spending?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I am afraid that I am even more recent than you are, but I have assumed that is a good thing in any part of American democracy.

Senator UPTON. I might say, in a project of this size, planning before spending seems to be the natural procedure. Apparently there are others here who think so. Is that the policy which you are developing here?

Dr. BROWNELL. We are trying to lay some pretty sound plans, Senator.

Senator HILL. Are you through? One question: Don't you think the State should make that plan, Doctor?

Dr. BROWNELL. I should think that the planning should be done locally. It should be done statewide, and it should be done at the national level. Part of the problem is, What are the relative responsibilities of the three levels of government? I believe we have to dig right in on that and get some reasonable agreement before any sound plan from the standpoint of the Federal Government could hope to be convincing to the Congress.

Senator HILL. But the basic plans should be those of the State, shouldn't they? Just as the primary responsibility is that of the State.

Dr. BROWNELL. What do you mean by "basic plans"? There have to be basic plans at the local level, State level, and I think there ought to be basic plans at the Federal level. That is what we are trying to do; to move in that direction, to get the necessary background of facts and study that go into that kind of planning.

Senator COOPER. Any more questions?

Senator HILL. No.

Senator COOPER. Senator Upton?

Senator UPTON. No questions.

Senator COOPER. We have several other witnesses. I notice it is now 12:05.

Is there anyone else here from the Department who wishes to testify? Secretary HOBBY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Then I am going to recess this hearing until 1:30, and at that time we will hear the other witnesses.

(Whereupon, at 12:07 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 1:30 p. m., of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

(The hearing reconvened at 1:35 p. m., Senator John Sherman Cooper presiding.)

Senator COOPER. The subcommittee will resume its hearings.

Mr. William G. Carr, executive secretary of the National Education Association. Mr. Carr, we know the work of your association. We know something about your own work. We are glad that you are a witness here today, and we will be anxious to hear the views of the NEA.