Senator HILL. Of course, since you know we have a Presidential commission today, do we not, on the relationship to the Federal, State and local units?

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, I do.

Senator HILL. And that commission, of course, is governing this. Secretary HOBBY. Yes, sir. I am a member of that commission. Senator HILL. You are a member of that commission.

How long do you think these conferences will take? They will take some time, will they not; some months; maybe some years? Secretary HOBBY. Dr. Brownell, would you like to comment on that, please?

Dr. BROWNELI.. The bill proposes that the State conferences all be held within a year's time, so that we could have the advantage of two things: First, that we would have this mobilizing action in the States rapidly and, secondly, that we would have the materials growing out of those study-action conferences for use in the White House conference.

That is one reason why it was felt necessary to have the Federal appropriation, so that the preparation for the conferences could go on at once rather than asking each of the States to provide the necessary money to go into a carefully prepared, well-conducted conference, which would bring in citizens and educators to do this planning.

The thing I would like to comment on there is again the illustration we have of what has happened in the thousands of communities throughout the country, where action has taken place already, and the way in which effective action has been brought about is because the citizens and educators have worked together and developed an action program, and we believe that if the same process is followed, statewide, that we will get in each of the States an action program there which will do the sort of thing that I know you are interested in and we are interested in, which is to make progress faster than we are making at the present time.

Senator HILL. Don't you think, Doctor, this committee, working with you all, could work out here shortly a Federal aid-for-school-construction bill which would mean that the States would come right forward?

Dr. BROWNELL. I think I can say this: That there are many times when I think I have the answer to problems when I recognize that the important thing is that not only am I convinced of the answer, but the problem is not just my problem. After all, the schools are the people's schools and the answer ought to be the answer that comes from the people; and we have, as I am sure you have championed on many occasions, accepted the idea that education primarily, the control of education, is a State function.

I think before we move into a Federal program as important as is involved here, we should be very sure that the States have considered what they can do and what they want to do and, as the Secretary has indicated, what is the proper role of the States and the Federal Government in this sort of thing.

So, I think it is very important that we do get the citizens throughout the country to look at the problems on the State level in order to determine their action program.

Senator HILL. You, of course, recognize the fact that today children are going to school in terribly crowded classrooms. Some of them

are going in old apartment houses, basements, garages, quonset huts, many of them going to school in buildings that are fire hazards.

We just picked up the paper the other morning and saw that terrible tragedy that had taken place, where the shool had caught on fire and the children perished in that awful fire. We found one situation where our children are going to school in an old morgue. They will have delightful memories of their alma mater, won't they? Dr. BROWNELL. I am very much aware of that, have been for years, and feel that it is exceedingly important that they get extensive and rapid action.

I believe, if we mobilize citizen interest with educators in each of the 48 States, we are going to get much more widespread and extensive action than otherwise would be the case.

Senator HILL. Don't you think, my dear sir, that the interest of the people, the interest of our teachers is already a keen interest today?

Dr. BROWNELL. I think so.

Senator HILL. Surely.

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes. I think there is much

Senator HILL. You wouldn't deny that, would you?

Dr. BROWNELL. I would say this: If you look over the record, you will find a good many communities where they are voting down bond issues at the present time where they have the capacity.

Now, when you find a community that votes down a bond issue, that indicates there aren't enough citizens who are interested to go ahead and provide the facilities.

I think throughout this country there are a great many citizens who do not appreciate to the full the problems that we face in the field of education. I think much has to be done in order to get the facts to the people.

Senator HILL. Doctor, you realize, of course, these bills are following somewhat the precedent in the Hospital Survey and Construction Act, whereby State planners make those State plans, don't you?

Dr. BROWNELL. May I ask, Mr. Senator, what bills you are referring to?

Senator HILL. Well, I just happen to have the bill Senator McClellan introduced, because I happened to be one of the authors of that bill, and Senator Cooper's bill, too, provides for State plans. Dr. BROWNELL. Yes.

Senator HILL. The State will first make its plans. All that requires time, of course, too.

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes. I wasn't quite sure which bills you were referring to.

Senator HILL. I referred to the bill introduced by the distinguished chairman of the subcommittee, Senator Cooper, of Kentucky.

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes.

Senator HILL. And the bill introduced by Senator McClellan and some 25 Senators, including myself.

Both of those bills provide for State plans. They follow somewhat the pattern that we worked out on the hospital construction, having your State plans first.

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes. I am familiar with those bills, and I recognize that they get at one of the problems that we face, namely, they attempt to approach this problem of school construction.

Now, actually, the problem of school construction is only one of the problems that has to be faced by these States. Part of the difficulty is this matter of redistricting, of bonding limits, of assessments that are important in our long-range approach to the problem of providing the necessary facilities.

The State conferences would not be limited in their consideration purely to the problem of school construction, you understand.

Senator HILL. I appreciate that fact, but surely the Federal Government is not going in to try to tell the States what they should do about their bonding arrangements and things of that kind, I am

sure.

Dr. BROWNELL. No, but the purpose of the State conference is to bring the citizens together so they can consider that and decide what their action should be, Mr. Senator.

Senator HILL. As I said, I think this thing of conferences is all right, but I do think we have a compelling situation here which is imminent, a great crisis, and I hate to see all this time go by without some action being taken, because I know conference reports and all that business takes months and months, and finally years have gone by. Before this meeting I sought to see if any report had come in from your Department on these bills to which I referred. Senator Cooper's bill was introduced on July 6, 1953-that is some 9 months ago, I guess and I find no report on this bill from the Department.

As you know, when bills are introduced, it is the practice of the committees to send bills to the particular department that has jurisdiction over the subject matter of the bills. I wonder if we might have a report on these bills.

Senator McClellan's bill was introduced on January 7.

Dr. BROWNELL. Certainly. If that report hasn't come through, I shall check on it immediately, because I know the analysis has been made.

Senator HILL. Senator Cooper's bill was introduced on July 6, 1953, and Senator McClellan's bill was introduced on January 7. If we could have reports on those bills, it might be helpful.

Dr. BROWNELL. Yes, sir.

May I make just one more comment on this?

Senator HILL. Yes; surely.

Dr. BROWNELL. Which has to do with the question of whether this particular bill, in reference to the conference, is a bill which will bring about action or whether it will slow down action, since that point has been made.

If I didn't believe that these conferences would stimulate and bring about action in the 48 States faster than if we didn't have them, wouldn't be interested in the conferences. The purpose is to mobilize action, and, as I would like to repeat, we have seen the way in which action has been brought about in the local communities; that is, by bringing together citizens and educators to study their problem. We believe that the only satisfactory way to do that at the present time is to help them to do it, because it is harder for people in a State to get together than it is in a local community, and therefore we are urging these because we believe it will bring about more rapid and more extensive action than would otherwise be the case.

Senator HILL. Surely they give us no action at this time.

Dr. BROWNELL. No; they don't give us action, and as you indicated, there are a great many other things that take time after a decision is made, but we can't go back now to what we wish had been done 5 or 6 years ago. We have to start from where we are in order to move ahead, as I see it.

Senator HILL. I have in mind, of course, the Hospital Survey and Construction Act. I suppose if we had waited, had conferences to see what local communities would do and what they would not do, we perhaps would not have built an additional hospital bed by now. We moved forward. We provided for State plans, just as Senator Cooper's bill and Senator McClellan's bill provides, and as a result, we have built thousands of hospital beds in many, many hospitals of all kinds and characters and many, many public health centers.

Dr. BROWNELL. May I note, however, what I think is rather an important essential difference between the hospital situation and the school situation: We have throughout the country local school boards that have been established over the years for the purpose of planning and conducting the school program. We have our State school systems, and we have long recognized through judicial decisions and otherwise that education is a responsibility of the State. Therefore, when we come to face what is the Federal responsibility, you see, we are in a little bit different situation than we are in connection with the hospital situation where there has not been that kind of a history and a legal structure.

Senator HILL. We find these local boards, my dear doctor, come right in-have you found any of them giving you much difficulty i building school buildings where you came in with your Federal aid?

Dr. BROWNELL. Again you have quite a different situation than you have in many of our other areas where the question of the Federal responsibility is not so clear, and we have a problem there which I think needs to be very carefully considered.

Senator HILL. I don't know what your idea of responsibility may be. I think we agree that the primary responsibility belongs to the State and local communities, but I definitely feel that the Federal Government has a responsibility in this field, and we have recognized that in many, many ways from the very beginning of our Govern

ment.

We started helping local communities even before we were a Federal Union; land grants of all kinds were given to the schools, recognizing the Federal Government's responsibilities in this field.

Dr. BROWNELL. I would like to comment, if I may, on two points there. One is the fact that in connection with these Federal districts, where there is property owned by the Federal Government on which there are families with schoolchildren, there the way in which money is provided for the schools is by Federal payments in lieu of local taxation. Federal property is exempt from local taxation. Therefore, the Congress has taken the position-and I would say I think quite rightfully so that the Federal Government has an obligation to provide the cost of education for those children.

If that Federal property were assessed for school purposes the same as the surrounding property, it would bring in for school purposes annually about $300 million.

The Federal Government is paying out now under this assistance. for the operation of schools in such territory about $55 million. That

46149-54-5

is one clear way in which action has been taken by the Federal Government and which the Congress at this time is going to have to consider separate from the program that we have indicated here.

Senator HILL. You would recognize a responsibility of the Federal Government in the field of education in addition to that to which you have just referred, would you not?

Dr. BROWNELL. Let me put it this way: Yes, I recognize the concern on the part of the Federal Government.

Senator HILL. Concern you wouldn't use that word "responsibility"?

Dr. BROWNELL. The reason I didn't use the word "responsibility" is because of the interpretation made by many people. "Responsibility" is interpreted in a great many ways, and I dislike to be put in the position where I will be misunderstood and misinterpreted. I think one of the things that we have to decide as American people is in what way the Federal Government proposes to recognize its concern, and, if you please, its responsibility. I don't think that that is very clearly agreed upon by the people in this country, and I think that is one of the important reasons for bringing people together in these conferences to consider that fundamental problem.

Senator HILL. As the Commissioner of the United States Bureau of Education, would you not feel that you are in a position of leadershipand should accept that leadership of helping to make clear what should be the concern or responsibility of the Federal Government in the field of education?

Dr. BROWNELL. Well, I hope that this is one way of expressing that leadership, and I would hope that the leadership would be not by my telling the people, but by my working with the people to help them to come to what is a reasonable solution for education in this country. I wish I thought that I had all the answers, but I am afraid that I don't.

Senator HILL. My dear doctor, do you think there is any problem to which we have all the answers?

Dr. BROWNELL. I think a good procedure is to get those of us together to try to work out the best answers we can.

Senator HILL. Mr. Chairman, you have been very patient, and our witnesses have been, too. I don't want to take a whole lot more time, but I do want to ask a question about your bill, S. 2723.

As I understand it, the House reduced the amount from $1,500,000 to $750,000; is that correct?

Dr. BROWNELL. That is my understanding, yes, sir.

Senator HILL. What is your position on that, Mrs. Secretary, if I may ask?

Secretary HOBBY. We would hope the Senate would allow the amount we requested, Senator.

Senator HILL. In other words, the full $1,500,000.

Secretary HоOBBY. Yes.

Senator HILL. I see. The Senate bill provides that no State shall receive less than $10,000, and I understand the House cut the mini

mum to $5,000. What would be your feeling about that? Secretary HOBBY. We would prefer the $10,000, Senator. Senator HILL. You would ask for the $10,000?

Secretary HOBBY. Yes, sir.