consider lessening the amount of required time for shopwork. For vocational classes, where we are teaching a trade that is fine. But in technical courses where you want to get into more mathematics and more physics, then I would appeal that perhaps is a little too great a time. That would be the only thing that I would know of where Federal rule affects the local situation.

Senator YARBOROUGH. And there is no attempt there to dictate otherwise as to how to teach those classes, what textbooks to use or how you would otherwise arrange your curriculum or your program? Mr. CARL. Absolutely none.

Mr. WATSON. In my experience the only direction from the Federal level has been in terms of minimum standards and actually that is not Federal domination because those determinations are made by State and local people working with people at the Federal level, so that there is a voicing of opinion in establishing minimum standards in the

program.

Now, beyond the meeting of minimum standards which are specified either in the acts or in the official interpretation of the acts, there has been certainly a decreasing tendency on the part of the Federal Government to use any direction or control. More responsibility continually is being placed on the States and localities.

Mr. BLACKWELL. Gentlemen, the next point concerns the implications of the basic service formula used in S. 1138 and the other bills before the committee. As you perhaps know, there are other bills pending before the Congress which have a basic entitlement formula different from the one used in the Korean GI bill and the one used in S. 1138 and the other educational bills before the committee.

S. 1138 uses the formula of 111⁄2 times each day of service whereas the other bills referred to reduce this formula to 1 day of educational entitlement for 1 day of service.

As you can see, the computations on that formula for a 2-year period of service will result in about 2 years and 6 months of educational entitlement in terms of school years, whereas the same period of service under S. 1138 would entitle a veteran to 4 years of school.

Now, since you have not had an opportunity to review the transcript, I will inform you that representatives of higher education testified on this previously and unanimously favored the 12-day formula as provided for Korean veterans.

Now you see the implications of this. Would you gentlemen care to comment and state your views on the relative merits of the two types of formulas?

Mr. CARL. I would agree that the 112 days for each day of service would be an equitable time allotment, the reason being that while most of our courses are 2 years in length, there are some technical courses which would require 3 and even 4 years.

We always have men who would be taking, for example, carpentry. As one of the witnesses has testified this morning, he took carpentry and became employed as a carpenter; then he wished to build himself up in his occupation. This would give him further entitlement to carry on in the college or other school of his choice to further himself in this occupation after he went through some type of vocational training to obtain that all important first job. I would heartily recommend 12 days' entitlement for each day of service.

Mr. BLACKWELL. I might interpolate here, before further comment is made, that the main point made by the representatives of higher education is that the 11/2-day formula-providing 4 years of school entitlement-constitutes a wider range of educational opportunity, one within which all individuals have ample opportunity to fit themselves. The person with aptitudes leading him to vocational and technical training can improve and fulfill those aptitudes and abilities within that range, while the person with aptitudes pointing toward a longer period of training is likewise accommodated by the formula. Mr. CARL. I have a similar problem with regard to acquiring vocational technical teachers. We encourage some of our veterans to carry on with their education. They go out and they must have at least 6 years in the trade in which they are going to teach. For instance, carpentry. They must also complete 30 college credits to become certified as a teacher and we try and get them started toward picking up that 30 credits by offcampus extension education from the Pennsylvania State University so they can become, by the time they complete their 6 years, 2 years with us, plus 4 years in industry, they are then certified as a teacher. This is the way we get vocational teachers. If we couldn't do something like this we would be really in a bad state because we do not get these men for this type of teaching from the colleges, because these men must know the trade they are teaching. They must be toolmakers. And we do not find toolmakers coming out of colleges.

Mr. BLACKWELL. Your point here is that the reduced formula will, as a practical matter, prevent you from obtaining any vocational teachers?

Mr. CARL. That is right.

Mr. BLACKWELL. From this program?

Mr. CARL. That is right.

Mr. BLACKWELL. Although you could give some of your shorter courses and train the men to perform occupations, you would get very few, if any, teachers from this program?

Mr. CARL. That is right. This materially helps these men develop along this line.

Mr. WATSON. I certainly concur with the broader educational opportunity that will be provided by the formula as indicated in 1138. I would further say that in training in agriculture, depending upon the previous educational training, of the individual there may be many cases where there is an indicated need for 36 and 48 months of training in agriculture properly to orient a veteran in that field. Senator YARBOROUGH. That completes the hearing for this morning. I want to thank all of you gentlemen who have come here from your homes to testify at this hearing.

The hearing will now be recessed until Friday, April 17, at 2 p.m. Thank you all very much for your attendance.

(Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m. the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m., Friday, April 17, 1959.)

EDUCATIONAL AND OTHER READJUSTMENT ASSISTANCE FOR POST-KOREAN VETERANS

FRIDAY, APRIL 17, 1959

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS

OF THE COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 2 p.m., in room 4232, New Senate Office Building, Hon. Ralph W. Yarborough (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Senator Yarborough (presiding).

Committee staff member present: Frederick R. Blackwell, counsel to the subcommittee.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The Subcommittee on Veterans' Affairs will come to order.

The Subcommittee on Veterans' Affairs now resumes hearings on S. 1138, to provide educational and other readjustment assistance benefits for post-Korean veterans; S. 270 and S. 930, to provide educational benefits for post-Korean veterans; and S. 1050, to provide educational assistance for orphans of post-Korean veterans.

I am glad to note at this time that there are so many servicemen present at this hearing who have come here on their own time. It carries me back in my memory to my active service during World War II, when one combat division in which I served had the lucky, or unlucky, break, depending on however you view it, of having served on three continents.

We welcome you servicemen here. I think that some of the opinions that I have on veterans affairs were formed by me while I was in uniform in service. We hope that some of the problems that the Government has in some of our endeavors on behalf of a stronger economy, with better laws, and a stronger Nation, will cause you to gain some benefit from these hearings.

We have with us today witnesses from the Veterans' Administration. The formal statement of the position of the Veterans' Administration will be presented by Timothy F. Daley, Associate General Counsel for Legislative Services. Mr. Daley is accompanied by Ray P. Bland, Director, and Alfred T. Bronaugh, Assistant Director, Legislative Projects Service II; Wilton B. Gundlach, Acting Direc tor, Vocational Rehabilitation and Education Service; Robert W. Jett, Acting Special Assistant to Director, Vocational Rehabilitation Service; Fred H. Branan, Principal Research Specialist, Vocational Rehabilitation and Educational Service; Department of Veterans' Benefits; Phillip N. Brownstein, Director, and Phillip J. Maloney, Chief, Legislative and Regulatory Staff, Loan Guaranty Service, Department of Veterans' Benefits.

Now, Mr. Daley, proceed in your own way.

STATEMENT OF TIMOTHY F. DALEY, ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL FOR LEGISLATIVE SERVICES, VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION, ACCOMPANIED BY RAY P. BLAND, DIRECTOR, LEGISLATIVE PROJECTS SERVICE NO. II; ALFRED T. BRONAUGH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, LEGISLATIVE PROJECTS SERVICE; WILTON B. GUNDLACH, ACTING DIRECTOR, VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND EDUCATION SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' BENEFITS; ROBERT W. JETT, ACTING SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO DIRECTOR, VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND EDUCATION SERVICE; FRED H. BRANAN, PRINCIPAL RESEARCH SPECIALIST, VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION AND EDUCATION SERVICE; PHILIP N. BROWNSTEIN, DIRECTOR, LOAN GUARANTY SERVICE; AND PHILLIP J. MALONEY, CHIEF OF THE LEGISLATIVE AND REGULATORY STAFF, VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION Mr. DALEY. Thank you, Senator.

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, the Veterans' Administration appreciates this opportunity to present its views on the measures now before you. The Administrator has already filed with the committee reports outlining his views and recommendations on these measures.

Except for S. 906, these bills present the basic question of policy as to whether additional benefits should be extended to veterans who have served during the period of the peacetime draft. These veterans are now eligible for certain very important and valuable benefits. These include death and disability compensation benefits, hospital, and medical care for service-connected illnesses, and special term national service life insurance if they are disabled as the result of their service. In addition, unemployment compensation, which was one of the readjustment benefits afforded the Korean group by the Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act, is now available to post-Korean veterans on a permanent basis pursuant to Public Law 85-848.

The most comprehensive bill now before you is S. 1138, the chairman's bill. It would add to the existing benefits available to these veterans vocational rehabilitation for service-connected disabilities and, with some modifications, three of the readjustment benefits of the Korean GI bill-namely, education and training, home and farm loans, and mustering-out pay. The last-mentioned program is administered by the service departments, and we assume that the committee will look to the Department of Defense for specific comments on that aspect of the subject.

Section 3 of S. 1138 would amend chapter 31 of title 38, United States Code, to extend the existing vocational rehabilitation program on the same basis as it has heretofore been provided for veterans of World War II and the Korean conflict to persons disabled as the result of service after January 31, 1955. Vocational rehabilitation is given. distinctive treatment in the bill in that it would become a permanent veterans' benefit and not limited to the period of the draft laws. This benefit has proved to be extremely worthwhile, not only to the veterans themselves, but to the Nation as a whole in enabling persons disabled by their service to become self-sustaining. Accordingly, our