Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1952 and other related and similar acts and the maintenance of an adequate supply of military manpower by the Defense Department, they do not fall within the purview of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. We desire, therefore, to defer to the Department of Defense and to the Veterans' Administration in connection with such relationships.

S. 906 relates to the clarification of the meaning of the term "change of program of education or training." We consider this to be a technical problem within the purview of the Veterans' Administration and, therefore, defer to that Agency in the presentation of views concerning this bill.

Mr. Chairman, I understand that the Veterans' Administration has concurred in the idea and we think it is a very good thing and are happy likewise to concur.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

Commissioner DERTHICK. S. 1050 provides for the extension of the benefits of the War Orphans' Educational Assistance Act of 1956 to the children of certain defined persons deceased while on active duty during periods of peacetime service. While we desire to defer to the Administrator of Veterans' Affairs concerning any proposed extension of S. 1050, we understand that the Administrator has testified in opposition to such extension.

Section 3, subchapter VII, of S. 1138 would extend the provisions of existing vocational rehabilitation programs on the same basis as the provisions heretofore provided for veterans of World War II and the Korean conflict. It is my understanding the Administrator has endorsed the principle of extending vocational rehabilitation services to the group of veterans of peacetime services as a permanent program to go hand-in-hand with disability compensation. I am, therefore, prepared to concur in such recommendations of the Administrator.

The Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, like the Administrator of Veterans' Affairs, except in relation to section 3 of S. 1138 referred to above, is unable to recommend favorably concerning the extension of the educational benefits for veterans as proposed in S. 270, S. 930, and S. 1138.

The purpose of the educational benefits provided under the Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1952 was to provide for— Vocational readjustment and restoring lost educational opportunities to those service men and women whose educational or vocational ambitions have been interrupted or impeded by reason of active service in the Armed Forces during a period of national emergency.

It is our understanding that at the present time young men are not being inducted into the Armed Forces below the age of 22 years. This age is at or just above the average age of those graduating from U.S. colleges. Furthermore, the regulations of the Selective Service permit the deferment of military obligations on the part of college students. These regulations permit the deferment of military obligations at least until graduation and in some instances permit continued deferment for graduate or professional work.

Moreover, the Department of Defense states that under the Reserve Forces Act of 1955 there are more than 30 ways whereby a young man may choose to fulfill his military service obligations. Many of the

options thus provided under the Reserve Forces Act make it possible for the individual student to complete his educational program prior to rendering military service.

It appears to us, therefore, that the present Selective Service regulations and the Reserve Forces Act of 1955 contain provisions which are adequate to permit a young man to synchronize his military service with his educational or vocational plans without serious detriment to the latter.

While we have not made a detailed study of the impact of the foregoing provisions of the Selective Training and Service Act and of the Reserve Forces Act, we do not have available information which indicates that the educational or vocational plans of young men are at this time being unduly interrupted or impeded by reason of their required service in the Armed Forces.

Certainly we would question whether or not the proposed legislation would fulfill the principles quoted above which were basic in the mind of Congress in passing the Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1952.

In the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare and in the Office of Education it is our judgment that the educational and vocational needs of young men subject to military service during peacetime should be considered as a part of the immediate and broader problem which involves the educational needs of all our young men and women. We would, of course, make a distinction in the case of men whose service is for the duration of war or a period of hostilities. Such men cannot control either their time of induction or their length of service as can be done under present laws and regulations issued thereunder.

It is particularly important during this period when we are undergoing a shortage of young manpower that we consider the educational needs of the entire group of youth, including young women. It is of interest to note that we have several hundred thousand fewer young people aged 18 to 21 in 1959 than we had in 1940 when our population was only 132 million.

Our population now approximates 175 million. We shall not again return to the same level of population in the 18- to 21-year-old group which obtained in 1940 until the end of 1960.

In the connection, Mr. Chairman, I should like to draw your attention and that of your colleagues to recommendation No. 54(b) of the final report of the President's Commission on Veterans' Pensions, which states in part:

Educational benefits for ex-servicemen should not be used, on a long-term basis, as a means for meeting national educational needs. The broader national interest in adequate education, particularly at the higher levels, should be considered on a general basis which will take into account the abilities and needs of all young people, including ex-servicemen.

These broader needs have been given intensive consideration during the past several years by the President's Committee on Education Beyond the High School and by the President's Committee for the Development of Scientists and Engineers. Moreover, many States and private associations and organizations have conducted surveys and studies in these areas of concern.

The most important consideration which has taken place in the development of a program for the fullest utilization of our young manpower on a broad basis is contained in the National Defense Education Act of 1958. Attention is hereby invited to title V of this act which provides for a program of testing, counseling and guidance and the indentification and encouragement of talented young people and to title II which provides for a program of loans to college students.

Under the latter title preference is given to those planning to teach and those with high aptitude for science, mathematics, engineering, and modern foreign languages.

Beyond these special considerations, eligibility is extended to all students. The National Defense Education Act is based upon the principle that the Federal Government should assist in solving the problems of young people. Thus the National Defense Education Act is concerned with the broader national interest in adequate education and on a broad general basis the need to take into account the abilities and needs of all young people without regard to whether or not they have had military service.

It is our judgment that, during periods of peacetime, consideration should be given by the Federal Government to assisting in the development of the broadest possible pool of trained manpower. We consider the National Defense Education Act an important contribution to this principle and believe that future programs should be developed on this basis.

We would not wish it to be thought that we are in any way oblivious to the effect of a period of military service which young people are called upon to render to our country. However, I have already pointed out that under selective service regulations and under the Reserve Forces Act young men are essentially able to complete their program of education prior to entering the military service.

Therefore, it may be that these young people need some other type of assistance other than educational, such as, for example, in the purchase of homes or in establishing themselves in business. We doubt very much that educational benefits are very appropriate for individuals who have completed their education.

That, Mr. Chairman, is the conclusion of my formal statement. Senator YARBOROUGH. Of course, Commissioner Derthick, if they had completed their education it is not likely that they would apply for educational benefits under this act, is it?

Commissioner DERTHICK. That is true.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The experience of World War II was that approximately half of the veterans applied for educational benefits, wasn't that true? Of about 15 million and some-odd, approximately 7,800,000 applied for education benefits?

Commissioner DERTHICK. That figure sounds approximately cor

rect.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I believe we had testimony yesterday to the effect that 7,800,000 veterans applied for educational benefits. Twentynine percent went to college. The other 71 percent were divided between subcollege courses and vocational courses. You rely heavily here upon the National Defense Education Act of 1958 as the reason why this law, the cold war Veterans' Readjustment Act, is not needed.

How many students are receiving loans this year under the National Defense Education Act of 1958?

Commissioner DERTHICK. Mr. Chairman, the act is so new that we don't yet have figures on that.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Isn't it a fact that your tentative allocation of loans to colleges over the country is for only 10 percent of the amount that the colleges have certified to you that they need?

Commissioner DERTHICK. The initial allocation is that. It is a little over 10 percent now because the original figure we had from the colleges was $62 million and that has been cut down by them to $55 million. The initial allocation was $6 million. The House, as you know, has concurred in the request for a supplemental, which would bring the total sum up to $30 million against $55 million for this fiscal year 1959.

Senator YARBOROUGH. However, the amount appropriated, and that is for loans, would be only a small fraction of what the college officials have certified they need for students in these select categories! Commissioner DERTHICK. It would be a little more than half I believe, assuming that the Senate concurs. If we get the supplemental it would be a little more than half.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Of course that is just the select students. Commissioner DERTHICK. It is true that preference is given to those with high aptitude in mathematics, science, and foreign language, and those who plan to teach. However, it by no means excludes any other worthy student.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You are familiar, are you not, with the report of the Census Bureau on the increase in earnings of veterans of World War II? That report shows that the median income of World War II veterans was once lower than the median income of a comparable age group of nonveterans, but that the median income of veterans has now gone up and surpassed that of the nonveterans. Credit for raising the earning capacity of the veterans as compared to the nonveterans-which in turn raised the taxpaying ability of veterans as compared to nonveterans-was due to the GI bill of rights training they received.

Commissioner DERTHICK. Yes, sir; I was very much heartened to hear about that report.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I presume you have seen the statements that due to this training the Government will ultimately receive back in taxes, in the not too distant future, more money than the training has cost because of the enhanced skills and increased earning capacity of this great 7,800,000 manpower reservoir.

Commissioner DERTHICK. Yes, sir: I am very gratified at that. It just confirms your convictions and mine and those of all other people who believe in education.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I might say, Mr. Commissioner, I am very much surprised that the Commissioner of Education would come in here and oppose this modest educational proposal. You state in your testimony that the regulations of selective service will permit the deferment of military obligations on the part of the college students, and you point out that they will be finishing college at the age of 22 years on the average.

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Have you had the benefit of the testimony that has been given us heretofore in these hearings by deans and presidents of universities and colleges that the average student does not finish his college work by age 22; also, that the average student does not finish college in 4 years due to economic factors? Frequently, students have to work while in school, which reduces the school workload they can carry; many have to drop out of school entirely and work full-time for a year or more before resuming their education.

Are you familiar with that statistical fact?

Commissioner DERTHICK. I do not know the extent to which that testimony is borne out by the statistics, but it is reasonable to suppose that young people do have a chance, a great many of them, to finish by the age of 22, and they ordinarily would. Moreover, we have in mind that there are so many different ways they can plan their military service so that it will not interrupt their schooling even though they shouldn't graduate on schedule.

I believe they tell us there are 30 different ways they might plan it. Senator YARBOROUGH. Commissioner Derthick, isn't this speculative and theoretical rather than actual? You are talking about the ways, theoretically, they could plan it. The college officials who have been testifying here state that it does interfere. Isn't it human experience that 2 years out of a young person's life in the military service is an interruption of his normal academic training, or of whatever he is doing in his normal life?

Commissioner DERTHICK. Of course, I am not an admissions officer or dean of a particular institution where I would have that firsthand experience, but so far as my observations go, I have been aware of the fact that our young men are alerted to these ways and means of getting deferment in order to complete their education. I think they do plan in that direction. They are quite wise on the subject, it has been my observation.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Quite wise-but they can't beat economics and the loss of 2 years out of their training. You don't think this generation is wise enough for that, do you, Mr. Commissioner, that they could take 2 years out of their lives without it meaning anything? Commissioner DERTHICK. Yes, of course, it does, and I don't depreciate that, and yet our point of view is that in view of the total manpower problem that we have in this country we are afraid that a concentration of attention on this particular group would dissipate attention to all the other groups for which we need to provide training and that if these young people should have extra compensation for their period of service it should be in another form than educational benefits. In other words, Mr. Chairman, a while ago you said that you were surprised that the Commissioner of Education would oppose this legislation for educational benefits, and I certainly would be surprised at myself if I would oppose any educational program that I thought was soundly based, but it is because of my responsibility as Commissioner of Education and my concern as a teacher for all possible training of our manpower that I am afraid that this particular approach would defeat our total purpose.

I am afraid that the country and the Congress would think, well, now, we have passed this legislation and we have taken care of this group, and lose sight of all the other young people that this country