"One man's meat is another man's poison." So every population, every nationality, has certain people in it who are luckier than others, certain ones who are candidates for disease. And this should be part of the study, as well as the international study.

Senator COOPER. Doctor, there are many private organizations and groups in the United States that do attempt to correlate and coordinate the medical research between the countries and collect the information which is derived from research in other countries?

Dr. WHITE. Yes, indeed; but they have been inadequate in the amount of help they have been able to give. And we have struggled during these years since 1954, when I myself joined one of these research teams, to get funds, adequate funds. We have had to take them here and there, small amounts, a thousand dollars one place, $1,500 from another. We each have small funds, and we have pooled them, and it has been very difficult.

Senator COOPER. That is the point I want to bring out. I know these private organizations have been working. I will ask you this question: Is there any national body, either private or public, which attempts to correlate or coordinate research in a country and to collect and disseminate information?

Dr. WHITE. Not adequately. This that we have set up privately, the International Society of Cardiology Foundation in Chicago, which is receiving from patients of mine, for example, a thousand dollars from one patient and $2,000 from another. That still is going to be very small in its immediate effects, unless it is backed up.

Senator COOPER. What are the ways, then, that you foresee that the establishment of this Council, this National Council for International Research, will be a public body? What are the ways in which it would add to the efforts that are now being made? Is it because of the money that would be made available for it?

Dr. WHITE. Oh, money and training. Money for the research itself, and money for training, bringing some of these potential workers in other countries to this country to start their training so that they can go back, and then we can join them in these researches. They may need training over here. Most fruitful work has come, for example, in a place like Nicotera in the toe of Italy, from a young man, Dr. Del Vecchio, who had his training in this country for 2 years and then went back and organized the population of his own hometown, Nicotera. His father and mother lived there. He knew the doctor, he knew the mayor, and he organized this, so that when we went there, as a team, we got over 96 percent of voluntary acceptance of the program, people 40 to 60 years old coming to be examined. And recently in Yugoslavia in some of the towns along the Dalmation coast, we had 100 percent voluntary examinations. And that is very unusual. This has come largely through the training of these people over here, first, before they go back.

So all this, I think, has got to be set up. And I think the money and plans must be directed not only to the other institutes of health, like the National Heart Institute and the National Cancer Institute, but also through the private groups, the American Heart Association and the American Cancer Association, and such an organization as this that I have just mentioned which we established 2 years ago, which we called the International Society of Cardiology Foundation.

Through those private and public institutes already set up to do the research, funds should be allocated.

Senator COOPER. How would it work as to this organization in its relationship to the work of the World Health Organization?

Dr. WHITE. The World Health Organization has not, so far as I know, gone so much into the field of research. This would be in the field of research, primarily.

The CHAIRMAN. There would be no conflict there, would there, Doctor?

Dr. WHITE. I think not. It was wonderful last week to have the report to the Nation from the American Heart Association and the National Heart Institute, public and private enterprises working together, during the last 10 years very effectively.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Morse?

Senator MORSE. I have two questions. I would like to make a very brief observation of the testimony and General Bradley's testimony. I want to make this comment from the standpoint of my membership on the Foreign Relations Committee.

I shall see to it that the committee is apprised of this transcript this morning, because this is the finest foreign relations testimony I have heard yet this year, and we have had some great witnesses before us. Because this is what I mean by a flexible foreign policy; this kind of approach implements the people's movement.

I will say, Mr. Chairman, that these scientists and these doctors are the best ambassadors we send abroad. And I do not take away from our official diplomatic ambassadors; but this is the way to reach people.

I find this a very thrilling experience here this morning, because I am just thinking if we lift our eyes a bit we can see new horizons in the field of foreign policy for such legislation.

When I was in India, where there was much malnutrition, and it links to your testimony about malnutrition and overnutrition, I was told-and I do not know how scientifically reliable it is-by many Indians that they have very little heart disease compared with the heart disease of the United States. Is that factually true?

Dr. WHITE. Well, they have some people living in India who live a little the way the Rotary Club members do in Naples; but they are a very small minority. But they can get coronary heart disease in the twenties. I examined a young Indian 29 years old with coronary thrombosis. But he was not a peasant. And so although there are a few afflicted the way we are, the majority are still struggling against undernutrition and infectious diseases. But if they raise their level of living to ours, I think they will get into trouble, another sort of trouble. But we need to know more about it.

Senator MORSE. The second question goes to your comment concerning the experiments in Russia and elsewhere on the primates. The other evening I just happened to be at a restaurant to which a State Department official brought a visiting delegation of Russian doctors, and I was pleased, as I always am, when in contact with people on the professional and scientific level, to find how nonpolitical they are. Would you say that this reference to their experiments with primates is some indication that the Russian medical profession

is going rapidly ahead in the field of research with which this resolution deals?

Dr. WHITE. Well, I think that was the only source of envy_that our group had when we visited Moscow, medically. But Dr. Rusk may have something to say about that later. We felt that in that particular field, they were ahead of us in their opportunities.

Senator MORSE. You think the opportunity exists, then, for some American medical penetration into Russia that might augur well for foreign relations in the future?

Dr. WHITE. Oh, I think so. I think that we should establish our own monkey colonies, however.

Senator MORSE. I quite agree with that. I am talking about the exchange of scientific information.

Dr. WHITE. Yes. Well, they welcome visitors at Sukumi, the monkey colony. When Dr. Watt went down there, he was shown a good deal of what they were doing in the field, anything he wanted to find out.

Senator MORSE. Finally, as to the cost of this particular program, I suppose the total amount of money that could be spent is almost without limit. But does it not become a question of comparative values, and does not this committee have the responsibility of determining whether or not money spent for this type of improved foreign relations would produce greater chances for peace than possibly some other expenditures?

Dr. WHITE. Oh, yes. When I was appearing for the National Heart Institute, and the National Advisory Heart Council, there was often difficulty in having funds applied to foreign research, medical research in foreign countries. And I think it still exists to a certain extent. I am quite sure it does. And here would be a source, with consultation with each institute, of what their needs are internationally, for a proper evaluation of the amount. I do not know what the amount should be, and I have understood that there are counterpart funds in foreign currency engendered by the ICA, to supplement the current sum that might be utilized. It might be helpful in a supplementary way, because I think that when these countries feel that they have a share in this international activity, they will be more anxious to do it, and they want to do it.

Senator MORSE. The fact is that we are trying to find ways and means of spending counterpart funds in many countries.

Dr. WHITE. Well, here is a chance.

Senator MORSE. I would be perfectly willing to spend every dollar of those funds for this purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Yarborough?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Dr. White, you have mentioned the greater incidence of heart disease in the United States than in a number of other countries. Is there a radical difference in the incidence of cancer in the United States than in some other countries in the world?

Dr. WHITE. I cannot answer that. I think Dr. Rusk could answer it better. I would doubt it, rather; but of course the incidence and prevalence of cancer increases with age. Therefore, since we have a population that is older than in most countries, I suppose we may have actually, therefore, more cancer. But this is not true of heart

disease. I think in the heart field it looks as if we certainly had more coronary heart disease than in most countries.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The resolution provides for study of mental disease, also. Is there a radical difference in the incidence of mental diseases between different countries?

Dr. WHITE. I think nobody knows for certain. Some of these studies have not been made yet. And I am sure there are peoples in other countries who might be considered mentally abnormal who have not been studied. There has not been time, because of their infectious diseases. When I was a young intern, we had to spend so much time on infantile dysentry, typhoid fever, pneumonia, rheumatic fever that we did not have time to do these other things-the study of the heart and mental diseases. Now with the infectious diseases cleared away, we have been able to diagnose and more accurately treat mental disorders. But we are so far ahead of the rest of the world in this respect, that there must be a great amount of mental disease undiagnosed and untreated in in foreign countries.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I believe you have recommended that this study include investigations into biophysics, biochemistry, physiology, pathology, genetics, nutrition, and biostatistics. Is that right? Among others?

Dr. WHITE. Yes.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Is there any existing agency public or private, that furnishes that opportunity for comparative studies, as between nations and peoples, that this resolution would provide?

Dr. WHITE. No. Certainly not adequately. There are minor efforts. For example, our International Society for Cardiology has been struggling with this. We have a very important tripartite committee, we call it, on international research, social problems, and nomenclature. But we are just working on a shoestring. We have great plans, but there is really not much accomplished yet.

Senator YARBOROUGH. But to make a proper study, you think the type of agency contemplated in S.J. Res. 41 is necessary?

Dr. WHITE. I think it is necessary. It would act through agencies that are already set up-the Institutes for Health, for example, and the private organizations such as the American Heart Association, and so forth.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Clark?

Senator CLARK. Dr. White, I suppose you appreciate that we in this body have some political problems in connection with attempting to press this resolution towards enactment. I share your hope that the Dark Ages of medicine are over. Would you anticipate any organized opposition to this resolution from within your profession on the ground that it is using the taxpayers' money to promote socialized medicine, to break the President's budget ceiling, and thus to increase dangerous inflationary pressures?

Dr. WHITE. I would not. But, of course, it may be a question of the amount of money spent. I think we have got to start this, anyway even with a small amount.

Senator CLARK. The resolution calls for $50 million a year authorization. Would you think that was about right?

Dr. WHITE. I have no idea of the amount that would prove to be needed.

Senator CLARK. Do you have any idea as to the position the American Medical Association will take on this?

Dr. WHITE. I do not know. I have not consulted them. But we certainly need to start, even if it is a smaller sum.

Senator CLARK. One other question. The effect of this program, I would feel, would be to increase the birth rate and decrease the death rate all over the world, and this would contribute to a substantial increase in the world's population. Do you know of any studies being made within your profession dealing with the public health aspects of this situation?

Dr. WHITE. Oh, yes. There are a good many studies now of population, medically and otherwise. Such studies as that of birth control, which comes more or less spontaneously as improvement of health and cutting down of infant mortality comes into play. In the old days, there had to be large families of children, because half of them died young. And so they had to have families that were too big, in order to have enough people to help carry on the farm work, for example.

Senator CLARK. Looking ahead a generation, would you anticipate that this problem of the world's population would become a quite serious one?

Dr. WHITE. I would not, myself. I would think this would be taken care of.

Senator CLARK. How would it be taken care of, if you are going to have more people all the time?

Dr. WHITE. Well, they will be more educated. They will be healthier. Their minds, too. They will realize-and this has been said about this high infant mortality: As soon as the infants no longer die, then it is not necessary to have 10 children in a family where 4 might suffice. And as a matter of fact, when we were in Moscow, we went into a hospital ward in the country, where there was a ward for legal abortion. And there were three women in this ward, and we questioned them. This was one way, of course, the way they did at that time. And we asked why they came in for abortion. And each one of these three said: "We already have four children." Each one said that four children were enough.

Senator RANDOLPH. There was some levity in reference to Adam and Eve. I return now, however, to a serious level, Dr. White: You used the expression "diseases of man." And in the measure which is before us, the resolution embraces the terminology of the killing and crippling impairments of man. Is it medical language to use the expression "man and woman," or "man" alone?

Dr. WHITE. No; it is just a generic term, meaning women as well as men. You might say mankind. I would think the definition would be adequate.

Senator RANDOLPH. The reason I mentioned it, you pointedly spoke of women living longer than men ; is that correct?

Dr. WHITE. Yes, that is correct. In this country by about 6 years, 5 to 6 years. Oh, I do not mind adding "woman," but I do not think that is necessary.

Senator RANDOLPH. I will not belabor the point. We could use the term "humankind." I think too often we speak of man and fail to speak of woman. And I believe in general we are inclined to place the emphasis upon man and not give equal emphasis to woman.