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HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, March 4.

PETITIONS AGAINST THE PROPERTYTAX.] Petitions against the Propertytax were presented from Monmouth, Litchfield, Macclesfield, Bridgwater, High Wycombe, Belford, Southmolton, Calne, Wigtown, St. George the Martyr in the borough of Southwark, the Ward of Dowgate in the city of London, Lambeth, Huntingdon, Norman-Cross, Mile-End Old Town, St. Luke Chelsea, Woolwich, Somerset, Wokingham, Lime-street Ward London, Tewkesbury, Chester, Beverly, Maiden-Bradley, Yarum, Guisborough, Leeds, and Congleton.

Mr. Abercrombie, on presenting the petition from Calne, said, that the signatures to the petition would have been much more numerous if his constituents were not afraid of being too late in consequence of the great anxiety which ministers had evinced to press the tax forward at the present early period. The petitioners stated, in very strong terms, the oppressive severity with which the tax bore on them, and implored the House not to consent to its continuance. They also complained of the immense standing army intended to be kept up, which they considered as one of the great causes of the present enormous load of taxes.

Mr. Grenfell, adverting to the complaints which had been made against the present mode of collecting the propertytax, took upon himself to say, that the greatest tyranny of which we had to complain, was not that arising out of the inquisitorial powers given to the commissioners of the property tax, as this was exceeded by the conduct of the board of taxes at Somerset-house. He gave notice, that it was his intention to move that night, unless it was objected to by ministers, on the ground of his having given no previous notice, for copies of the correspondence which had taken place between that board and an eminent mercantile house in the city, which he thought would be found to justify the assertion he had made.

though it had not been very long open. He regretted that he did not see any of his majesty's ministers in their places, that they might hear the sentiments of the respectable meeting which had agreed to this petition, on the subject of the tax, but as he had another to present from the ward of Dowgate, he hoped some of them would arrive, time enough to hear it.The petition being read and ordered to lie on the table, the hon. member then presented a petition from the inhabitants of the ward of Dowgate, against the tax. He declared himself much flattered by having the honour of laying it before the House, as it was usual for petitions from the different wards of the metropolis, to be presented by some one of the city members. The petition was signed by every individual of the ward from which it came, except one.

Mr. Barclay presented a petition from the inhabitants of the parish of Lambeth. This, he observed, like the two preceding petitions which had been presented by his hon. colleague, was signed by very respectable persons, most of whom were particularly favourable to the present ministers.

The present

Sir E. Knatchbull, in presenting the petition from Woolwich, directed the attention of ministers to the language of the petitioners, and called upon them to answer it. The petitioners described themselves to have borne with patience the burthen of the property-tax during the war, relying on the pledge which had been given to them, that they should be relieved from it so soon as peace returned. To this they stated the government to have been positively pledged. was the first opportunity he had had in this session of addressing the House on the subject, and he was now free to confess, that unless government intended the tax should be very much modified, he should feel it his duty to oppose the renewal of it; but at the same time he wished to be distinctly understood to give no opinion, for or against it, at present. He should be glad to hear what the chancellor of the exchequer would have to state to the House on Wednesday. Till he was in possession of this, he could not make up his mind on the subject. A re

Mr. C. Calvert, in presenting the petition from the inhabitants of the parish of St. George the Martyr in Southwark, praying for the abolition of the property-quisition for a county meeting on the tax, observed, that the meeting at which that petition was prepared, was most numerous and respectable, and that the signatures to it were upwards of one thousand, (VOL. XXXII.)

grievances complained of under the present tithe laws had been already signed: and a second had been prepared, calling for a meeting to consider of petitioning (3 Y)

parliament against the renewal of the property tax. He would not anticipate the result of the proceedings on this question, but under all circumstances, he was inclined to hope the chancellor of the exchequer would abandon his present plan. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought the hon. baronet did himself and his constituents great honour, by the course which he had thought it his duty to take on the present occasion, in declining to give an opinion for or against the proposed measure, till the grounds on which it was brought forward had been fully stated to the House. He was quite ready to declare to the hon. baronet, that the petitioners, with respect to the supposed pledge, which it was said had been given, were completely misinformed. On the first introduction of the income tax, by Mr. Pitt, instead of a pledge being given that it should cease at the conclusion of the war, its produce was actually mortgaged at that time for 56,000,000l., a sum which it would have taken eight years to pay off. From this it was clear, that Mr. Pitt had not then pledged the House to do away that tax immediately on the return of peace. When, on the renewal of the war, a tax upon income was again thought necessary, it was no longer had recourse to as a fund on which money might be borrowed, but as the means for meeting the necessary supplies of the year. When granted during the continuance of the war, " and no longer," no pledge was given that ministers should be precluded from availing themselves of such an impost on the return of peace: they were only bound by those words, again to submit the policy of taking such a course to the consideration of the House. In 1806, when it was raised in its amount, the chancellor of the exchequer and the ministers of that day, had given no pledge, that they would never, on any subsequent occasion, but in time of war, have recourse to such a measure. This they must have meant to leave open to the future consideration of parliament, on the presumption that there it would be disposed of, according to the circumstances which might arise. Having thus briefly adverted to what had been done by his predecessors in office, he now came to speak of the course which he himself had pursued. In the last year he bad come down to the House on the 20th of February, and offered a general state ment of the ways and means by which it

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had occurred to him to provide for the service of the year; and among these the property tax was not included. He had done this, not because he thought that to propose a renewal of that tax would be a breach of good faith, as he conceived that a question which was open to consideration at any time, but because he thought it objectionable in policy at that period. The circumstances of the present day were widely different from those of the country then. He had at the time to which he referred suggested other taxes, some of which had afterwards been adopted by parliament, and had been mortgaged for a term of years as a part of the provision for the loan of the year. Among the other taxes then proposed was a large addition to the assessed taxes, and certainly he had heard it made a question by many, whether this would not be more burthensome and severe on the public than the property tax, while at the same time its produce would not exceed half the amount of the sum raised by that impost. It was on these considerations that he had determined on submitting the renewal of the property tax to the House. Before he sat down he thought it right to say, that the very important business about to come on, namely, the army estimates, together with the motion of the hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Western), would, he apprehended, be quite as much as the House could go through in the present week, with regard to the convenience or the health of its members, and he should therefore postpone his motion on the subject of the property tax, till Monday next.

Mr. Ponsonby observed that the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down had declared that the faith of parliament was not pledged to the abolition of the property tax at the end of the war; but it was most certain the understanding of the House and the country on the subject were directly opposite to the assertion. If ever there was any one thing more clearly and distinctly understood than another, it was the wording of the act of parliament, which said that the tax would expire on the 5th of April, in the present year, if a definitive treaty of peace had been signed before then. How was it possible that any thing could be more explicit or more clear than this was? But in the face of the country, with the words of the act so very plain, the chancellor of the exchequer still said that the House

was not pledged. Did the right hon. gentleman mean to say that no pledge existed because a clause had not been inserted in the act stating that no such pledge had been given? Such a clause would have been unnecessary, for the act had been too clear on the subject. The right hon. gentleman had talked of the assessed taxes and the great pressure which they would have on the country. He had threatened the House with the torture of those taxes if they refused their assent to the property tax, and seemed to say, if you won't have the one, you must bear the other. He, however, would answer him thus, neither the House nor the country would have either. The one or the other was too much. Either could only be necessary to keep up an expenditure which the country did not require. It was because the immense height to which the expenses of the state had been carried would not be relinquished while such large supplies were granted, that he would object to either of the taxes which the right hon. gentleman had proposed. The hon. baronet who had presented the petition had been complimented by the chancellor of the exchequer, for the manly and independent manner in which he had expressed himself. He agreed to this compliment, and he hoped that as the chancellor of the exchequer had so great a value for the opinion of the hon. baronet, he would take the advice which he had given him, and give up the tax altogether.

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Mr. Fremantle said, that the chancellor of the exchequer in stating his reasons for not having proposed the property tax last year, should have gone a little farther than he did; he should have recollected, that besides his declaration at that time, that he did not conceive the House pledged to abolish the tax; he had mentioned that it was not proposed because the nation was at peace, and because he did not conceive himself justified in proposing it at the termination of hostilities. It was in this sense that the abolition of the tax was understood throughout the country at that period. It was in this sense they continued still to understand it. The people conceived that the tax had been abolished because the war was at an end, and they now conceived that it should be abolished for the same reason. It was for this reason that he would oppose the tax. He conceived it not only a tax imposed against the consent of the +

whole nation, but a tax by which the faith of parliament would be considered by the people as violated. He called on the right hon. gentleman to give up this tax, against which such a just outcry had been raised. If he carried it he might have cause to regret it to the latest period of his life, as it was a measure against which it was evident he saw the general feeling of the country raised.

Mr. Dickenson presented a petition from the county of Somerset, against the property tax, complaining of the great distress of the agricultural interests, and lamenting the failure of the performance of that promise of economy which had been made by the Prince Regent at the opening of the session. The hon. gentleman in presenting this petition, took occa sion to advert to the incredible state of distress to which the agricultural interests throughout the country had been reduced. He observed, that many farms were totally abandoned to their original owners, who, from want of capital, were unable to cultivate them; others were daily abandoned, and no new tenants could be obtained. As for leases which had hitherto been considered as the best security of the tenant, there was no such thing now in use; and farms, when they could be. let, and these were only such as were in the very best condition, were let from year to year. The evil did not rest here, however, for the distresses were so oppressive, that they actually had the effect of demoralizing the people, by inducing them to make over their stock to poor relations, with the view to defraud their landlords. Added to this, scarce a day passed that the French ambassador did not grant fifty passports to persons going to France, forty-five at least of whom were English emigrants flying from the weight of taxation at home. To bring these persons back, it was only necessary to look the situation of the country fairly in the face, and to adopt such remedies as prudence and a due regard to the faith of parliament would naturally suggest.

Sir M. W. Ridley intreated the chancellor of the exchequer to act upon the hints given by these petitioners, and to endeavour to do without the property tax, by diminishing the taxation, and the expenditure of the country. A leading feature in the speech: of the Prince Regent was, the recom. mendation of economy which appeared in: it. If they looked at the conduct of the government, there was little reason to

the fulfilment of that assurance, he for one conceived himself called on to speak out, finding as he did that the noble lord and his majesty's government seemed to have forgotten so solemn an undertaking. Had he the good fortune to be one of the con

believe them sincere in the declaration to which he had referred. They had now on the table of the House the accounts of the recent increase of the salaries of the persons in various public offices. Why was this increase made at a period like the present? Was it to encourage a disposition to extra-stitutional advisers of the Crown, he would vagance, and to establish the necessity of renewing the property tax? If he recollected right, the property tax had been abandoned last year on account of the return of peace. When Buonaparté had again made his appearance in France, the right hon. gentleman had called for the renewal of the tax on account of the war then about to commence. It was thus that it had been again brought into operation. There was nothing to justify its continuance now, and he hoped it would not be pressed on the House and on the country.

go boldly forward and say, "The pledge which your royal highness has given to the people must be fulfilled. There must be no more excesses in the civil list. We must have no more useless and fanciful expenses, whether in the shape of thatched cottages, pagodas, pavilions, or palaces. Even those sums which are to be received from France as a compensation, in lieu of territorial cession, must be applied to the service of the country. It is in fact, already the property of the people, and is constitutionally placed in the hands of parliament, to be applied by them as they may think fit. You must also add practice to theory, for by this you can only bring your system to perfection. You must keep your faith with the people by abstaining from an extravagance which inexperience cannot palliate, and which poverty cannot justify." This was the language which, as an honest adviser, he would hold, but he felt a perfect confidence, that unless such advice was given and taken, and that the proposed military establishment was abandoned, there would be an end of the prosperity of the nation. If ministers lent a deaf car to these suggestions, public spirit was yet alive within these walls, and he trusted would force them to take a course which their own perverted judgment would

Mr. Gore Langton supported the petition presented by his worthy colleague, as it spoke the universal sentiments of the country against this obnoxious tax, of which the object was, to keep up an unconstitutional army in time of profound peace. Surely, after the unexampled patience with which the people had borne the weight of accumulated taxation, they had a right to expect the diminution of their burthens, and of all useless expenditure; above all, an emancipation from this tax, which he had always thought contrary to the nature and habits of Englishmen, and tending to undermine their native sentiments of independence. If ministers persevered further in the attempt to fasten on the shoulders of a free people this odious and desperate tax, he trusted that a majo-lead them to treat with indifference. He rity of that House would support the sen- would add one word more before he sat timents of the whole country. He wished down. An impression had gone abroad, this petition to be read by the clerk with and some of the public papers had given a distinct and audible voice, that it might sanction to that impression, by publishing not be lost on ministers, who, alone, seemed a list of those who had voted in favour of to be ignorant of the general feeling of the committee on the military establishthe country on this important question. ment, that those who had voted for the comMr. Methuen said, that as he had se-mittee were in favour of the establishment conded the address presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, thanking him for his most gracious speech, he felt himself peculiarly called upon, on the present occasion, to offer a few observations to the House. He would now remind his majesty's ministers, with what feelings of delight the people had received, from the speech of his royal highness, an assurance, that every regard should be paid to the strictest economy in all departments of the state. He participated in those feelings, and as he felt in some measure pledged to

He

proposed by ministers, without alteration.
He for one had voted for the committee,
but he was by no means favourable to
the plan proposed by the noble lord at
the head of the war department.
had voted for the committee, because it
was in the committee alone that the House
could object to each item separately. If
he had voted against the committee, he
should have felt that he was voting against
any military establishment whatever.

Mr. Lambton thought the sentiments of the hon. gentleman who spoke last did

him infinite honour. He congratulated a letter which he had received, that the the House and the country on the general mayor of Leeds did not preside at the feeling called forth on this occasion, while meeting at which the petition was agreed he condoled with ministers on their long to, and that the aldermen, and a great and painful indisposition, which, however, proportion of the most respectable merwas not surprising, when it was considered chants and manufacturers had also not how many severe attacks they had been been present at the meeting. With recompelled to sustain. He would recom- spect to the main part of the petition, the mend that to them which they had tried so property tax, he wished to express that long on the people of this country-profuse he had no opinion to deliver now on the bleeding. Whether the lancet or the leech subject. At all events it would be absowould do best for this purpose he did not lutely necessary to reduce and modify the know: but possibly they would be able to tax on the tenants, and also to make a reobtain satisfactory information on this duction in the case of proprietors, who, point from some of the commissioners of though their rents were not reduced, this very tax. In another and a better could not, from the distressed state of cause he should much admire the devoted their tenants, recover those rents from constancy with which the hon. member for them. In the difficulties under which the Surrey and other gentlemen, had stood by country at present laboured, it might be their ministerial friends in the present impossible to levy taxes which would not instance; he did not, however, think their be hurtful in more flourishing times. conduct would gain them much glory. With respect to the distresses of the agriThe time was now come when economy cultural interest, he owned he could not became absolutely necessary. The land- see that there was any great hope of a reholders must now make a stand, when the medy from the House. After the long landlord could get no rent, the tenant no war in which the country had been enprofit, and the poor no work. Those he gaged with the approbation of that House, had first mentioned, were for the present the burthens of the country had been compelled to live on their capital, and the augmented to such a degree, as to bear last had no resource. Yet it was said, the with the utmost severity on the domestic poor were not affected by the property tax. industry of the country, and particularly If it pressed thus heavy on those on whom the agricultural. But the distresses of they were dependent, how were they to the farmers were heightened by other cirlive? If they were turned out of employ, cumstances; he alluded in part to the faiwhat was to save them from starving. It lure of the country banks. This failure had been observed on a former evening, was attended with a diminished circulathat old men used to be employed in re- tion, and greater caution on the part of pairing the roads. This was no longer the the banks, which still remained. It would puzzle any man to suggest any remedy in these distresses but one, namely from the highest, to the lowest department in the state to introduce as much saving as pos

case.

The young and the active were now constrained to do what was formerly left for the aged and infirm. What, then, had been gained by the peace? The noble lord opposite had gained a blue ribbon-sible, with the view of reducing the the country, nothing.

Mr. Lyttelton expressed his surprise at the new attempt that had been made to prove that the faith of parliament had not been pledged upon the subject of the property tax. The people had unquestionably been deluded in this respect, for though in words no such undertaking might have been entered into, the understanding was universal in the country. He called upon the chancellor of the exchequer to give some further and more satisfactory information upon this point.

Lord Milton presented petitions against the property tax from Guisborough and Leeds.

Lord Lascelles said, he understood from

A

amount of taxation. He thought, how-
ever, this matter had not been fairly han-
died in the discussions in the House.
great part of the charges were the neces-
sary result of our long war, and ought to
be deducted in any permanent view of
our establishments. Still, however, with
regard to the agricultural interest, nothing
but a reduction of taxation would bring
things to a level. If this reduction should
not be seriously set about, he considered
the conduct of ministers would be highly
blameable, and he should be one of the
first to raise his voice against them. He
had taken this opportunity of throwing
out two or three general observations, be-
cause as he did not feel himself in such a

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