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Senator LEHMAN. We will be glad to have the brochure for our files. I want to ask you one question, and then the members of my staff want to ask some questions. I would like to make just a very brief statement for the record because I think the extent of these losses and the damage has not been fully understood by the American people.

The committee has not as yet been able to get any authoritative official estimates as to the losses that have occurred during the period, let us say, of August 10 to September 20. They have not been able to give us these authoritative figures for the area included in the Northeastern States and in North Carolina and South Carolina. The Corps of Engineers is now working on a survey to cover that. That will not be ready for another month or two.

But I want to make this statement for the record: That the estimates of loss for the period I have mentioned, which covers 3 storms as I understand it, vary from a minimum estimate of $750 million to a maximum estimate of $1.6 billion.

But even assuming that the minimum figures are accurate and I don't know whether they are or whether they will run much higher than the estimates-but even assuming and accepting the minimum figures we would have losses and damage amounting to $750 million, which is certainly a staggering amount and which must cause great economic dislocation and great social dislocation in the areas affected. I wanted that to go on the record.

General, the Red Cross worked down here, did they not?
General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. In these disasters?

General GRIFFIN. They did a fine job; yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. To what extent did they rebuild or rehabilitate homes and smaller industrial property?

General GRIFFIN. They spent, as I recall it, as a result of Hazel. something over $700,000. I know from personal observation that they did assist a lot of our small fishermen and people like that in replacing their nets and repairing their boats and getting the boats back in the water, which was quite a problem.

Many places you could ride along the highway and the highway would be littered with boats literally blown up out of the water.

We had one ferry down there crossing an inland waterway which was capable of carrying 6 automobiles. This was taken out of the inland waterway and deposited some 300 yards back up on the high ground. It took the highway commission, I believe with about 60 men, a week to get it back and floated-to dig it out and float it again.

So we did have some terrific losses among those people down there who are residents of that area. The Red Cross up till now in the last 3 storms have spent, as I recall, I believe somewhere about $600,000.

They have done a fine job, we think, and we are most grateful for everything they did. They have been very cooperative, and in our operations with them everything has been very pleasant. We feel that they did a fine job here for us.

Senator LEHMAN. I think the Red Cross is a wonderful organization, and the money that is contributed to them, of course, represents the generosity of the American people.

General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. I hope that they will always not only maintain their many grand activities but increase them.

But I do want to point out that they can't possibly in the very nature of things make very much of a dent in making good the losses. General GRIFFIN. Oh, no, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. I mean you testified they spent about $600,000 in this State, and they spent approximately similar amounts or relative amounts in the other States. But as against the loss which you claim of $350 million, while their work is grand and I want to emphasize that with all the strength at my command, they certainly cannot by themselves make good the losses that have come in this State and in other States.

General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. I want to say this, if I may, Mr. Chairman. I want to pay tribute here to the Federal Civil Defense Administration. I think that we have got as fine a setup down here in region 3, which embraces the seven Southern States, as you could find anywhere. We have had fine cooperation from them. They have done a wonderful job, we think, to try to assist our counties and towns in the temporary restoration of their essential facilities.

I want to pay a tribute to them. They have done a magnificent job, and they have cooperated with us in every way.

Judge Tom Goodman is the regional director, or the regional administrator I believe they call him, and he has come every time we have called him to our State. He has sent his people to help too, and they have done an outstanding job, we think, for us.

Senator LEHMAN. Mr. Edelstein, have you any questions to ask? Mr. EDELSTEIN. I have a few.

Just for the record, I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that we now have received figures from the Red Cross under date of November 23 which give their total expenditure in the whole six-State area up-to-date as $16 million.

Senator LEHMAN. That includes the Northeastern States and the Carolinas?

Mr. EDELSTEIN. That's right.

General, do you have any idea, in view of your own experience in this field, as to where this disaster insurance program might better repose as far as the Federal Government is concerned? In what agency?

The suggestions that have been made to the committee are threeone the Housing and Home Finance Agency, another the Federal Civil Defense Agency, and the other an independent agency.

General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Well, it is my thought, sir, and this is purely lay now, I know nothing about what I am talking about but I will say this: That if the Federal Government is going to get into it, it seems to me that you have the agency set up now for it, and that is the Federal Civil Defense Administration. I think they could handle it beautifully along with the administration of Public Law 875. They could handle it very, very well I think.

Mr. EDELSTEIN. General, one of the bills that is before this committee-in fact, it is the bill suggested on a tentative basis by the chairman-has one section dealing with changes in the administrative responsibility of the Civil Defense Administration. Have you had a chance to look at that section of the bill?

it.

General GRIFFIN. I have glanced at it, sir. I have some ideas about.

Mr. EDELSTEIN. Have you any comment as to whether the giving of greater authority to the Federal Civil Defense Administration is a sound idea or whether it should be considered in connection with this legislation?

General GRIFFIN. I have followed the civil-defense program right closely now for some little time, and it is my thought, sir, with the grave situation that we face in this world today, that civil defense should be given more stature. I believe that the Federal Civil Defense Administrator should be a member of the Cabinet. He has the safety of the people of this country in his hands, so to speak, if the Congress will go along with him and help him. He has a tremendous job. I think it is just as important as anything that could happen for the good of this country and the safety of this country that the Civil Defense Administrator-I don't care who he is-should have Cabinet stature.

Mr. EDELSTEIN. General Griffin, as the official in charge of coordinating the program of relief and rehabilitation that took place in this State, would you say what was the general tenor of the general complaints, if there were any, against the assistance given by the various Federal agencies? We have in the record some complaints against the Small Business Administration, and also great praise of the Small Business Administration. What was the experience in this State? General GRIFFIN. We probably had maybe a dozen letters where people going to the Red Cross didn't get what they thought their neighbor got and they were a little dissatisfied about that.

So far as any criticism of any of the Federal agencies that were working with us, I know of none. I haven't heard of any. It seems to me that they would have come to my attention.

A lot of people, a lot of the municipal officials, probably don't feel that Public Law 875 is liberal enough, that they're not getting what they ought to have to rehabilitate their essential facilities. But you know we all want to get all we can, and that's just the way it goes.

Mr. EDELSTEIN. One final question, sir. Do you think that public facilities, which in North Carolina suffered such damage as you described, should be included under a Federal insurance program?

General GRIFFIN. I do; yes, sir. I think your bill provides that, as I recall it.

Mr. EDELSTEIN. Yes; it does, but that question has been raised. Senator LEHMAN. One more question, General. Under the law the authority is given I think to the Small Business Administration and also to the Farmers' Home Administration to make loans at a relatively low rate of interest for the rebuilding or the rehabilitation of homes. To your knowledge, have many of the homeowners availed themselves of that authority?

General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir; they have. I think as a result of Hazel the Small Business Administration loaned in this State probably a million and a half dollars. Of course, part of the requirements and the criteria was that the people would be unable to borrow the money in the local area. We had a number of people who lost properties who needed that help, and they got it at I believe about 3 percent interest. It was a great help to us.

We hope you will continue the Small Business Administration if we are going to continue to have these catastrophes.

Senator LEHMAN. Of course, those were loans which had to be repaid.

General GRIFFIN. They had to be paid back, yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. So if a man who had a little home with let us say a $10,000 mortgage on it had his home destroyed, all he was left with was the loan which had to be repaid.

General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. If he goes ahead under the existing law and makes another loan, which is possible up to a certain point, then he is saddled with the old loan and with the new loan. In other words, if he is a man of very small means, the burden on him to pay off those 2 loans on 1 house it seems to me will undoubtedly be very heavy. General GRIFFIN. It would; yes, sir.

Senator LEHMAN. I doubt if that is understood by a great many people. I have tried to emphasize it as much as possible. While I certainly think that these loans have been useful, they do not in the slightest degree compensate a man for the losses which he has suffered. They simply give him a chance to borrow more money at a relatively low rate of interest and rebuild or repair his home.

General GRIFFIN. That was one of the problems that faced a lot of our farmers. They had procured loans from the Farmers Home Administration prior to these storms, and they owed the Farmers Home Administration money, and then the storm came along and wiped out what they did have, and so they had to reborrow again to try to make a crop during 1956. So that has been quite a problem in eastern Carolina.

Senator LEHMAN. Mr. Rogers?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

On your statistics of $169 million, is there a procedure for you to report what you found to the regional director, Mr. Goodman, orGeneral GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. He has all those figures. We furnish him with all the information that we get.

Mr. ROGERS. Do you also report that to the Corps of Engineers? General GRIFFIN. No, sir, we do not. They have their own means of inspection, as I understand it.

I might say the Federal Civil Defense Administration has their own engineers, and they come into the area too, and they make their own surveys, and then we make ours, and we furnish them our information, so they have a pretty good line on the actual damage. Mr. ROGERS. Thank you.

Senator LEHMAN. Mr. McKenna ?

Mr. MCKENNA. General, I have just a couple of problems involving civil defense primarily. One of these is that we have received information complaining that it is difficult at times to get adequate warning to potential victims of natural disasters. I wondered if you had had that problem here in your area.

General GRIFFIN. No, sir, we have not. We have an adequate communications net. I might say that we have the finest highway patrol net, they say, in the country. They are our first line of communications. Then we have more than 1,500 amateur radio operators in the State, and they are organized, by the way, and it has been approved by the Communications Commission, so we have that group to rely on. Then we have in our forestry department a good radio network.

I might say that we are now augmenting the highway commission radio network.

So we feel and we know that we have a coverage to every area down in the stricken area.

Mr. MCKENNA. Yes, sir. I believe the objection that was raised, General, was when one of those storms approached in the early hours of the morning it was difficult to get adequate coverage because many people had ceased listening to their radios. Many of the radio stations had gone off the air and it was a question of trying to get some personal notification to those people in the area who were in danger. That would take some sort of, as you indicate, highway-patrol activity, which probably could help out in that field. I wondered whether the civil-defense organization itself could be implemented or organized to give notification door to door.

General GRIFFIN. We have in that area, I am thankful to say, a fairly good civil-defense setup. The people have realized the necessity for some kind of organization. We call the director in the county and in the community. I might say also that all of the sheriffs' departments have their radio network tied in to the highway patrol net, and they get the information about as soon as the highway patrol people do.

So we haven't had any trouble on warning. No, sir. None what

soever.

Mr. MCKENNA. One other problem. We were told that the fine aircraft surveillance that they maintain over water areas ceases when the storm passes over land. You folks here have been unfortunate enough to receive the main brunt of the storm coming in from the ocean usually.

I wondered whether or not that had presented any particular problem to you and whether you think it is deserving of study as to whether we ought to augment that aircraft surveillance over land areas as well

as over water areas.

General GRIFFIN. We would appreciate any help we can get, whether it is aircraft of whatever it might be.

Mr. MCKENNA. By the same token, I assume that you would be in support of whatever additional functions we can give the Weather Bureau in aid in their reporting service?

General GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCKENNA. We had heard some complaints from some areas that they were frightening too many people by these weather advisories unnecessarily. The Weather Bureau in defense states that it does the best it can to notify potentially dangerous areas of an approaching storm, whether it's a tropical storm or of hurricane force. and that if they had better facilities for accurate tracking of storms they might be able to limit their advisories to more accurate predictions.

General GRIFFIN. We feel, sir, the radio industry in North Carolina and the television industry have done an outstanding job in assisting us in notifying our people, and they come into play some several hours before the actual D-hour approaches.

Mr. MCKENNA. Yes, sir.

General GRIFFIN. They have been of great help to us, we think. You know, a lot of people don't like to hear the truth.

Mr. MCKENNA. That's all I have, Mr. Chairman.

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