they have no money, and the school district can get little tax revenue from them. If they are to be educated these public schools have to have some assistance.

Secretary UDALL. There is no question about it.

Senator CHAVEZ. The impact in Gallup, Mr. Secretary, that you know well is not from the so-called new white man going there. It is the impact of the Navajo from the Indian reservation moving into Gallup.

Secretary UDALL. Yes. This is one of the nagging problems that I think by spurts and starts we have done a good job here and there and we have improved this and that, but still I do not think we have gotten these people in a position where they can do what they want to do which is to manage their own affairs and to compete on an even basis. They cannot participate on an even basis because there are so many legal and other handicaps where we cannot give them the opportunity to develop their resources the same way you and I would develop them if we owned them. They just don't have that maneuverability and flexibility and we have to give it to them.

Senator CHAVEZ. I met with the Pueblos every year at Santo Domingo, which was the capital of the Pueblos whenever the tribal councils met. They ask for so little. All they want is health, education, and water and roads.

Senator KUCHEL. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?
Chairman HAYDEN. Certainly.

SALINE WATER CONVERSION PROGRAM

Senator KUCHEL. In your opening comments, Mr. Secretary, you spoke about the saline water conversion program in which all of us have an interest, and particularly the semiarid West. Under the appropriation which has been recommended by your Department and the action which the House has taken, is the Department proceeding with the construction of the pilot projects across the country?

Secretary UDALL. Yes. In fact, the moneys included in this bill will enable us to get started on the last of these. We are hoping to dedicate the Freeport plant, which is the first one, in June. This will will be the first one to come on the line. We are already moving forward at Roswell and San Diego and the others will be commenced

soon.

Senator KUCHEL. Could you give me an indication as to California when the San Diego plant might be completed and in operation? Secretary UDALL. My guess is that it will be late this year or next year sometime. As I recall it, it was the second one started.

ROLE OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN RESEARCH

Senator KUCHEL. Your comments also indicate your desire for a larger role in research by the Federal Government, and also attracting private enterprise into the field which I heartily approved. I was one of the coauthors of the present legislation.

My name is on the legislation now pending. Nevertheless, there has been some criticism of that legislation. I remember several months ago Barrons Weekly was raising cain with the role of Government saying that some private scientific groups in the United States were going forward.

Secretary UDALL. I read that piece.

Senator KUCHEL. That may be so, but I think it is unfair. I think there is a definite responsibility on the part of Government to continue. For example, what you are doing in your pilot plant program is something that I doubt very much private enterprise would undertake.

Secretary UDALL. Whoever this is, misconceived our role as we conceive it here because essentially this is the closest kind of partnership between industry and Government. We are working with various segments of industry. There is a great deal of interest in industry. All big companies, such as Westinghouse, are interested, as well as some small companies. We involve them in research contracts and pilot plant construction. I think the next step is to bring together, perhaps with a secondary participating role of some kind, industry and the people who need water, with the Department playing whatever role is necessary to bring them together. So our approach essentially is a private enterprise approach. This is the place where the article was wrong.

COOPERATION WITH FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS

Senator KUCHEL. In our program of expanded research, is the Department in a position to participate in a cooperative basis with foreign countries and what foreign countries are doing in this field? I have read some reports about how some of our friends in Europe through the Government are endeavoring to develop an economically feasible basis for this conversion. Are we cooperating with foreign governments?

Secretary UDALL. We are. I don't think we are doing enough. I think there is a need for a great deal more liaison and exchange of information on research. Perhaps it might even be wise-I don't know whether we have authority to do that-for us to look into it and work very closely with friendly governments in this field.

Senator KUCHEL. Would you be equipped under the present law to step up our Government's role in this field of sharing knowledge with friendly foreign governments?

Secretary UDALL. Yes, I am sure we have authority. We probably don't have authority, for example, to contract with foreign firms. That would be my guess. I am not so sure that ultimately if we are going to make the fruits of this program, once we can reach the point where we have something to offer to the world, to find us helping people build plants all over the world. That is, people who need help. I know this is the way the President conceives the program, that is, our country being the water bringer to the arid places in the world. This is something we want to share. This is one of the reasons we need to give greater emphasis to that aspect.

SALINE WATER CONVERSION PROJECT IN ISRAEL

Senator KUCHEL. I completely agree with you and I don't want to belabor this point. But I know a group of Israelis, Mr. Chairman, apparently have made rather striking progress in an economically feasible conversion. I think the Holland Dutch and to an extent the Belgians have also been working in this field. If there could be a

correlation between the Department of Interior and the State Department, I think this opens up a whole new opportunity to push this thing faster ahead.

What it means to your State and mine is tremendous.

Secretary UDALL. You are as excited about this as we are, Senator. Interestingly enough, this Israeli plant is a joint venture-an American concern and the Israeli Government. We had a representative at their plant dedication. We are working quite closely with them. This can be the best kind of worldwide cooperation. It is a marvelous program.

Senator CHAVEZ. Does the budget contain any money for the pilot plant at Roswell, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary UDALL. Yes, Senator. We are going ahead with that on schedule.

Chairman HAYDEN. You may proceed, Mr. Secretary.

COAL RESEARCH PROGRAM

Secretary UDALL. One other very new program which the House committee gave us what we asked for, is the coal research program. The coal industry, as all of you know, is fighting for its life. This is one of the areas where there is great economic distress. A few days ago I went out to look at the coalfields and some of their problems. I am amazed, really. Though they have been in very difficult straits in recent years, they have done one of the really extraordinary jobs that has been done in this country in terms of cutting costs and cutting corners. They are producing cheaper coal today than they were 11 years ago. It is quite a remarkable accomplishment. They are doing this by automation and by all sorts of cost-saving devices. But they still have a situation that is touch and go.

We again wanted to go into this program vigorously. We want to help the industry keep its markets and get new markets. We want to help them wherever possible to improve their mining methods. This again is going to be a program where our research contracts will be with industry. We will work very closely with industry.

We are not setting up any big new research facilities at the present time. We want to move as rapidly and vigorously as we can with this program. It may be, as we get on down the road, again that we will need larger programs.

LAND MANAGEMENT PROBLEMS

Getting on, Mr. Chairman, to some of the regular areas of activity, the Bureau of Land Management, for example, it seems to us that the big problem here is that there are nearly 100 million acres of land in grazing districts which need to be revegetated, which need attention, and proper conservation. These are not private lands. We are doing a pretty good job with a lot of our private lands. These are Federal lands. These lands would not only be of more value to the country and to those who use the lands, but this would be sound in terms of the conservation involved if we could make an attack which has been deferred too long on some of these problems.

We would hope that you would view with favor our request for aid here.

TAYLOR GRAZING ACT PROVISION

Senator CHAVEZ. Mr. Secretary, under the Taylor Grazing Act, out of the leased deal another 25 cents goes to the land.

Secretary UDALL. Yes.

Senator CHAVEZ. And 25 cents goes to the General Treasury. Fifty cents goes to the school district wherein the land is located. Does that 25 cents give you enough money to take care of the land? Secretary UDALL. I think the answer is "No," Senator, otherwise we would not come in with the request that we have before you. There are too many of these lands which are substandard, which with some attention we could not only fight off erosion but we could develop the capacity of these lands in terms of what they will produce, and this is one of the ongoing problems.

There was some dispute concerning a recreation item which we had included in our request. I wanted to discuss that just a moment because we make it a policy, and we have general laws covering that, wherever communities, counties, cities, are interested in public lands nearby we are encouraging them, and we are going ahead with ongoing programs, of getting these public lands for public uses such as parks, schools, and other purposes.

There are many of these lands, however, which are suitable for recreation but are located so far away as to not be susceptible to this approach. These are the lands we have requested funds for to develop at least the very minimum program for recreation purposes.

MISSION 66 PROGRAM

Moving on, Mr. Chairman, in regard to the Park Service, I just wanted to make one point. We have had a very successful program going with Mission 66. We are asking that this program be continued and strengthened. One area where there has been a very heavy demand which has been increasing in the last 2 years and we need additional funds and help is in terms of planning. The National Park Service is looked to by the city people, by the State people, for leadership in terms of planning their needs and of planning national programs. We are looking very seriously now in our Department about a national approach to this whole problem of the outdoors and parks. We all know the tremendous pressure that our National Park Service is under just because of the numbers of people that are able to get to the parks. One of the best ways to relieve that pressure is to have adequate State and local park systems, which we don't have. These people are looking to us for help. Our joint effort in that area in terms of planning is going to increase rather than decrease, and we do need assistance in that area.

INDIAN SCHOOL PROBLEMS

With regard to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, we have discussed some of the problems involved in that a moment ago. We are very happy to recommend to the committee a frontal attack on the problem of getting these youngsters in schools who are not in schools at the present time. Our recommendation was that we have a $20 million program expansion to launch an attack on getting the children in school for whom there are not at the present time seats or

dormitory space. Most of these youngsters are in remote areas, in the Navajo Reservation in Arizona and in New Mexico, Choctaws, and Eskimo children in Alaska. They present a special problem. Some of us had the feeling in the past that all the Indian kids were in school. This is not the case. We are going to have to make a special effort. We ask for an additional $20 million.

Senator YOUNG. May I ask a question at this point, Mr Chairman? Chairman HAYDEN. Surely.

Senator YOUNG. Would any of this $20 million be available for school problems such as we have in North Dakota to help public schools which are willing to educate Indians?

Secretary UDALL. This is your off-reservation problem?

Senator YOUNG. Yes.

Secretary UDALL. I am sure, Senator, that we have funds in there to round out these programs. This particular fund that I am referring to is a construction program.

Senator YOUNG. That is what I have reference to.

Secretary UDALL. If construction is needed and if there are children for whom there is not dormitory space or school seats, they undoubtedly would come under the program. The main bulk of the children, however, are in certain areas that have been so remote we just could not get them to school. This is one of the most costly problems. The House committee felt because the largest program in the past that our Department was able to carry out in a given year was $19 million, that this probably was too big a bite for us to take. They may be correct. On the other hand, through standardizing, through more liberal use of contracting firms, and through vigorous prosecution of the program it is our feeling that we could use the entire amount that we asked for, and we would hope that you would give sympathetic attention to that request.

There are other Indian problems, of course, and those will be discussed in detail.

ABSORPTION OF INDIAN CHILDREN INTO PUBLIC SCHOOLS

Senator DwORSHAK. Mr. Chairman, at that point I would like to ask the Secretary a question. I recall about a decade ago great emphasis was placed upon trying to absorb the Indian children in our public schools. I know, for instance, in Idaho we closed down the reservation schools because it was generally recognized that if we are going to segregate the Indian children they will never have the contacts with the American children which are so vital in helping them to assume the full capabilities of citizenship. Are you changing that policy in any way now? I have not followed it too closely during the past 10 years, but it seems to me and I recall a trip that our appropriations subcommittee made in 1945, 16 years ago, to Alaska— at that time Senator Gruening was Governor-emphasis was placed upon the then generally recognized program of getting away from Indian schools and getting the Indian children into public schools. What is the present status of that?

Secretary UDALL. No, Senator, we are not reversing that policy. I think in essence this is a sound policy. If you only have Indian children going to school on Indian reservations, it is a form of what you might call segregation.