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abolish the Office altogether or transfer it to some other division of his own department, because, in politics and in Government, oftentimes likes and dislikes have some bearing on who is going to get the duties to perform.

Mr. LOURIE. That is true of many Government bureaus.

Mr. DENT. We believe it ought to be in an agency set up by the Congress, distinct and separate. Whatever is done in the administration of it has nothing to do with it. But the fact is the Secretary cannot abolish this unified effort on behalf of the aged, as it can be done under the present setup.

Now that is the only aim, as I see it, of Mr. Fogarty and the hundreds of other Members of the Congress who have indicated an interest in this matter.

It is not a punitive proposition which someone is trying to make against any person. I do not know who is in the so-called Office of Aging. I met only some of those who have been on the witness stand. I have nothing personal in this matter and neither does any other member, but it is to set up, for the future, something that cannot be undone by the wish or whim of an individual. And that is all it is. Mr. LOURIE. I understand.

Mr. DENT. I think you know the problem, and you know what we have had to do many times. Reforms and innovations come very hard in politics.

Mr. CAREY. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to interpose this one point, looking toward posterity again, I think all of us in this room and all of us in this Congress will agree that what our country seeks to do in our programs at every level of government is to eliminate dependency as a matter of custom in the United States, at least to the point where anyone who wants to become independent will have the opportunity to do so.

So we are moving to eliminate dependency as a category of America. Therefore, the burden of casework in welfare must someday be minimized. It must go down. This is a challenge for us to remember, to reduce it to the absolute minimum, to the point of disappearance. On the other hand, the aging Americans, by reason of research, by reason of science, by reason of the great contribution of the medical profession, and by reason of the contribution of those in the field of gerontology, have become an ever-increasing group. By 1970, this will be a group of 20 million or more, and in the testimony this morning we were told that by reason of dramatic breakthroughs we can look to the day when the average life expectancy will be 125 years. We must look ahead to that point as dictated by the needs of the future. Those needs will be preponderantly greater for the aging Americans than for the public assistance cases. For that reason we have to look to the great and growing effort needed for the aging American and the eventual disappearance of the welfare aspect as we know it today.

For that reason, the Office must be distinct and separate and stand on its own feet.

Mr. DENT. There is no question about it. There is no quarrel even among the witnesses on that score.

Mr. LOURIE. We would like to see public assistance disappear, also. Mr. DENT. That is right; but we do not want to give it more reason for existence.

Mr. LOURIE. Well, I think if you examine the record you will find in the first part of Mr. Carey's statement it was very close to one of the major legislative objectives of the American Public Welfare Association and the record will show that, as we increase the range of social insurance system, we decrease the public assistance load. These things are not unrelated one to the other. They are both part of the same legislation.

Mr. DENT. Thank you very kindly, Norman.

At this time we will call upon the Honorable Claude Pepper, Representative of the Third District of Florida, who will present testimony on this legislation. Mr. Pepper, we welcome you here.

STATEMENT OF HON. CLAUDE PEPPER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA

Mr. PEPPER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, you are to be commended upon your interest in and your efforts toward greater Federal assistance in a program the design of which is to lengthen the lives, improve the health, increase the usefulness, and promote the happiness of the senior citizen of this country, now consisting of more than 17 million people in the Nation and over 600,000 in my State of Florida. More than 11 percent of the people of my congressional district are such senior citizens.

On February 21, 1963, I introduced H.R. 4055, to assist in the construction and operation of senior citizens centers and programs of education, recruiting, and training for community service, counseling, and other activities in keeping with the needs of older citizens, which should be cited, if enacted, I propose as the "Senior Activity Center and Community Service Act of 1963."

My bill proposed that the Congress clearly recognize the Federal responsibility to work with State and local governmental agencies, and private agencies as well, toward lengthening and enriching the lives of our senior citizens; and proposed a program by which the Federal Government should discharge this responsibility directly and through grants to State and local, as well as nonprofit private, groups working toward the same end.

Under my bill assistance would be given by the Federal Government in financing the construction and operation of multi-purpose and single-purpose senior citizen centers with qualified staff; to upgrade the quality of senior citizen programs and to train the necessary leadership, and to encourage senior citizens to participate in voluntary community service activities, which will help in making progress toward achievement, on behalf of our older citizens, of

(1) A variety of recreational, educational, cultural, and community service activities during the day, planned by the participants with the assistance of trained staff;

(2) An emphasis in the programs and in the individual contacts upon continued individual development to meet the challenges and the problems of later years;

(3) Opportunities to open new vistas in the retirement years, reduce rigidity and narrowness in old age, and enjoy creative meaningful experiences;

(4) A supportive environment of friends who can help the individual during periods of difficulty or stress;

(5) A reentry point where the individual can choose how and when he wants to participate in community life;

(6) Activity programs which contribute, directly or indirectly, to the individual's physical or mental well-being;

(7) Establishment of recreational and other leisure-time activities and informational, counseling, and referral services for older persons and assisting such persons in providing volunteer community or civic service;

(8) Study and make known the talents and skills of those older men and women who are interested and available;

(9) Identify and classify the services which can be performed by older men and women for community agencies, groups and individuals; and

(10) Establish a clearinghouse and resource center for bringing together the available services of older adults and the needs for their services.

My bill, H.R. 4055, in title I authorized to be appropriated for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1963, and each of the next 4 years, the sum of $10 million for grants to States for paying part of the costs of constructing and equipping new centers or for expansion of existing centers providing recreational and other leisure-time activities and information, counseling, and referral services for older persons and assisting such persons in providing volunteer community or civic services. Such grants under my bill were to be allocated to the several States in a ratio of the number of citizens each State has over 62 to the number of all citizens in the Nation of that age as determined by the Secretary. Such funds would be available to the several States for the payment of 60 percent of the cost of any such center upon the approval of a State plan for the construction of such centers.

My bill, H.R. 4055, in title II authorized to be appropriated for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1963, and each of the next 4 fiscal years, the sum of $10 million for grants to the States on the same ratio basis for State and community planning, demonstration programs, training of special personnel, and the establishment of new programs to carry out the general purposes of the act to protect the health, increase the skills, and enrich the lives of senior citizens. The bill contemplated that the Federal activities should be in support of approved State plans to further the purposes of the bill.

The bill also provided for an advisory committee to assist the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare to carry out the purposes of the bill for the benefit of senior citizens.

My bill provided for the program proposed being carried out in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare under the direction of the Secretary.

On February 25, 1963, I introduced H.R. 4188, to assist in the development of new or improved programs to help older persons, and for other purposes to be cited as the "Senior Citizens Act of 1963." The emphasis of this bill was upon the development of new and improved programs toward achieving, on behalf of our older citizens, (1) Adequate income in accordance with a rising standard of

living and equal opportunity for gainful activity in employment or self-employment;

(2) The best possible physical and mental health care and rehabilitation that medical science can make available;

(3) Suitable housing at costs which older persons can afford; (4) Opportunity for meaningful retirement activity within the widest range of civic, cultural, and recreational pursuits; (5) Coordinated community services suited to the special needs of older persons;

(6) Increased research in all aspects of aging and the immediate application of such knowledge; and

(7) Trained personnel to carry out the above objectives.

To accomplish these purposes the bill authorized in title I $1,590,000 to remain available until expended for allotments to the States for establish or improving State agencies to develop new or to improve old programs to carry out the purposes of this bill.

In title II the bill authorized $10 million for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1963, and each of the next 4 fiscal years, for grants to the States for community planning, services, and training to carry out the purposes of the program. The allotments to the States would be based upon the ratio of the senior citizens in the several States to the total number in the country. Allotments to the States would be conditioned upon the Secretary's approval of States' plans in furtherance of the bill.

My bill, H.R. 4188, also authorized to be appropriated for each fiscal year the sum of $1,500,000 for assisting in paying the costs of the State agencies set up to further the purposes of the bill. These funds would also be allocated to the several States upon the same ratio.

My bill, H.R. 4188, in title III authorized the Secretary to make grants to any public or nonprofit private agencies, institutions, or organizations for special demonstration, research, or training projects relating to the special educational, welfare, recreational, social, economic, or other problems of older persons or the aging.

In title IV of H.R. 4188 provision is made for an advisory committee to assist the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare in carrying out the purposes of the bill.

The bill also provided under title IV for an Interdepartmental Committee on Aging, consisting of the Secretary or his designee, as Chairman, and the heads of the following executive departments or agencies or their designees: the Departments of Labor, Commerce, Agriculture, and Treasury, the Housing and Home Finance Agency, the Veterans' Administration, and the Civil Service Commission. The duty of the Committee would be to make recommendations to the Secretary and to the heads of the other executive departments or agencies having functions or responsibilities in fields affecting or relating to the problems of aged persons or the aging, with a view to the improvement and coordination of such functions and responsibilities.

The administration of the program under my bill, H.R. 4188, would be in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare under the direction of the Secretary.

My bill, H.R. 4055, differs principally from H.R. 7957, introduced by Mr. Fogarty on August 6, 1963, in two respects: (1) The Fogarty bill provides for an Administration of Aging in the Department of

Health, Education, and Welfare under the direction of a Commissioner of Aging to be appointed by the President and approved by the Senate, while my bill, H.R. 4055, provides for the administration in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare under the direction of the Secretary. (2) The Fogarty bill, H.R. 7957, provides no funds for the construction of senior citizen centers; whereas my bill, H.R. 4055, does authorize Federal funds to be allocated to the several States for the construction of senior citizen activity centers in the several States.

My bill, H.R. 4188, differs from the Fogarty bill, H.R. 7957, principally in that the Fogarty bill provides for the administration of the program in an Administration of Aging under a Commissioner to be approved by the Senate, while my bill provides for the Administration of the program in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare under the direction of the Secretary. My bill, H.R. 4188, also provides for the coordination of the several programs respecting senior citizens through an interdepartmental committee consisting of the heads of all the departments and agencies dealing with the senior citizens who would be advisers to the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare.

The purpose of my bills, the Fogarty bill, and the other bills now before your select committee is to make meaningful the comforting words of Browning when he said:

Grow old along with me.

The best is yet to be.

The last of life, for which the first was made.

The senior citizens of this country who have borne the battles and burdens of a generation and by their labor, courage, and sacrifice have lifted our land to the summit of international power and prestige deserve that their Government, in expressing the gratitude of their fellow citizens who have been the beneficiaries of their struggles and sacrifices, shall in the days of their seniority do what it can in reason to assist their States and communities in making possible to them longer life, better health, greater service to their country, and more happiness. These bills are concerned with a program to accomplish these noble purposes and I hope, with the senior citizens of this country, that they have the support of your distinguished select committee. Mr. DENT. Thank you. I am sure that you have made a fine contribution to the deliberation of this committee.

Our next witness will be Congressman Fernand St Germain. Mr. St Germain represents the First Congressional District of Rhode Island. We will be glad to hear your testimony at this time.

STATEMENT OF HON. FERNAND ST GERMAIN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND

Mr. ST GERMAIN. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, the bill you are considering this morning is one of great importance, since it is designed to fulfill a great need. The older citizens of our country have waited long and patiently for enlightened governmental interest in their problems. The Older Americans Act of 1963, introduced by my friend and colleague from Rhode Island, Hon. John E. Fogarty, is worthy of your approval and support. I

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