Dr. HANSEN. At the time we had one man within the region to serve all five States.

Mr. QUIE. Thank you.

Mr. HANSEN. Let me express my appreciation to Dr. Hansen for an extremely well thought out and useful statement, particularly your detailing the implications of the reduction in the level of support of graduate work in the area of rehabilitation counseling.

As you are aware, this is one of the many specialized fields identified in the act. Those that justify special support in the form of grants for graduate work and other special grant programs. Among those are medicine, social work, occupational therapy, physical therapy, many others. Your area, of course is in counseling but I would like to ask you what you could tell us about the impact of the reduced level of support and its indications for the future in these other related fields.

Dr. HANSEN. These other fields that you are discussing will naationally be severely curtailed in the manpower development that they are able to provide within MPT, OT, 'social work as you have listed.

First I think our concentration today has been on the training of the rehabilitation counselor because we see this individual as the key implementor of the rehabilitation program. Along with his ability to implement the program, we know there must be allied health professions, professionals available to complete this circle of delivery of services.

If I have overstated the case about the rehabilitation counselor, it is because we believe him to be the implementor of this total rehabilitation program. We know if the next step in the chain is broken, the ability to find a properly trained physical therapist, people trained in medicine, this circle will be broken. Having these professionals within the allied health services is also important.

Mr. HANSEN. Would you say it is equally important with the needs in the counsel field?

Dr. HANSEN. I can only go back to my earlier remarks and say we feel the counseling field implements the beginning of the program, and in many instances we certainly are equal, but we feel by far the overriding purpose, the overriding implementation of rehabilitation comes from the counselor working in the field on an individual basis with a disabled client.

Mr. HANSEN. If I understand what you are saying, it is, in a large measure, the counselor's effectiveness depends on the level of skill and effectiveness of these allied fields.

Dr. HANSEN. That is correct.

Mr. HANSEN. Thank you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you, Dr. Hansen. We again on the subcommittee are grateful to you for your statement and responses to our questions.

Mr. Dwight, we are pleased to have you at this time with your associates, and perhaps you would be good enough to identify them and then I understand you have no opening statement, or perhaps you would like to make an opening statement, any way you wish to proceed.

A PANEL CONSISTING OF JAMES S. DWIGHT, JR., ADMINISTRATOR, SOCIAL AND REHABILITATION SERVICE, ACCOMPANIED BY CORBETT REEDY, ACTING COMMISSIONER, REHABILITATION SERVICES ADMINISTRATION, AND CAROLYN BETTS, ACTING ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR FOR FIELD OPERATIONS, SOCIAL AND REHABILITATION SERVICES

Mr. DWIGHT. Yes; I have with me this morning, as your letter of invitation suggested, Mr. Corbett Reedy, the Acting Commissioner of the Rehabilitation Agency, and Carolyn Betts, who handles the field operation activity.

I had not intended to make an opening statement inasmuch as this was a continuation of the previous overview hearing at which time I made an opening statement. However, I would offer an expression of my own concern at some of the testimony and the implications of the testimony we have heard thus far this morning; namely, that there was or ever has been any inclination to diminish the effectiveness with which this program services handicapped people. I think that the record, particularly the record since 1967, would speak strongly to the contrary.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you, Mr. Dwight, and let me express to you personally my own appreciation for your having come this morning because I know it was at some inconvenience to you. This committee, and the whole House, as you know, are extremely busy right now, so we don't have many days left. I appreciate also your observation.

One of the reasons I felt it appropriate that you testify after having the other witnesses heard was that you should have an opportunity, you and your associates, to hear some of the criticisms being voiced in the field. So I will just start going through some questions and we will run along as we can, and if there are bells, if you don't mind we will come right back as soon as we have answered our names and keep going as long as it is possible for you to be with us.

Let me begin with a question about the specific status of the VR regulations. You heard that matter discussed with Mr. Mills. Just by way of background, on October 24 of this year, RSA and SRS personnel met with the staff of the House Education and Labor Committees to discuss the regulations and guidelines and any potential issues that might arise out of them. At that time it is my understanding a specific commitment was made by those officials to return to Congress to discuss these issues and the regulations and guidelines and give members of the relevant authorizing committees an opportunity for further comment before the regulations are published. I understand-and you can advise me that the regulations are reaching final form, so I wonder if you can tell the subcommittee as specifically as you can just when and how the promised meeting with Members of Congress concerned and with their committee staffs will take place.

Mr. DWIGHT. Yes; I was not personally present at that meeting, but Mr. Reedy was there.

If I may digress for a moment, I would like to try to set the key elements in the process in a perspective with which I am viewing them,

and perhaps that will be of assistance in piercing to the point of what you are getting at, which is a status report, I believe.

The law was signed on September 26, I believe, and one of the key provisions in the law was that interim regulations be promulgated within 90 days, and second, that the old law would terminate and cease to function after that 90-day period of time, thereby providing us with a fairly short deadline, but certainly one we have every expectation of making in order to achieve some rather significant goals. Fortunately, inasmuch as the apparent conclusions in the law were visible some time before September, we commenced staff efforts within the Rehabilitation Service Agency in order to anticipate and actually to get to some of the work even before the law was signed, feeling that we at least could identify the options that were still open, and we could get some of this effort underway.

The meeting that took place with several of your staff members was for the purpose of giving them some idea of how we were proceeding. One of the specific outgrowths of that session was a commitment on our part to identify the issues which we believed would arise in the process of developing at least the proposed regulations which would implement the new law. We have every expectation, in fact we will issue interim regulations that will serve as the basis for guiding the program prior to the expiration of the 90-day period, which I believe is December 24. Those will reflect the essential changes flowing from the new law so the States will be operating under the new law effective with the issuance of those interim regulations.

There are also other processes by which regulations drafted, submitted for comment, refined, and finalized. By and large, these processes are set forth in regulation, I believe it is A-85 by name, which requires preconferral with other levels of Government, thereby assuring State inputs, and further requires the publication of proposed rulemaking, with, I believe a minimum comment period of 30 days. Based upon the comments received, both through the preconferral process with the States and other interested parties and through the process of publication of proposed rulemaking and receipt of comments, final regulations which govern the program come at the end of that

process.

We are on that track and I would hope that at least proposed regulations would be available concurrent with the issuance of the interim regulations which will govern the program. Obviousy we will want to confer very closely with those persons party to that earlier meeting that you made reference to, with the Governors, and with other interested parties.

I think we are making good progress. We have, I would say, substantially finished the staff effort internally within the Rehabilitation Service Agency. We are starting to move forward on our own internal clearance process, so ultimately the Secretary will be in a position to issue those as proposed rulemaking, as is his responsibility under the law.

Mr. BRADEMAS. When is the 90-day period up?

Mr. DWIGHT. Either December 24 or 25, let's say the 24th.

Mr. BRADEMAS. That is Christmas eve, and Congress is supposed to adjourn on December 15. I have not yet heard you give an answer to

my question. When are you going to sit down with us in Congress before these regulations are published to discuss them with us in order to enable us to give you our views to the extent to which they are in compliance with the intent of the law?

Mr. DWIGHT. My understanding, Mr. Chairman, was that the interest in the Congress was in the full-blown regulations which would be derived from the new law and the necessary policy choices that have to be made administratively within the law. Those issues, I believe, have been identified and presented to you.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Your understanding is not correct, I am afraid. Let me put it in as basic English as I can. A commitment was made last month, that prior to the issuance of the regulations and guidelines-prior, not after-Members of Congress who have responsibility in this field, would be consulted. We have not been consulted. I am asking when you intend to consult us. Now surely you can give me an answer to that question.

Mr. DWIGHT. I believe that one area of concern was identified, namely, the listing of issue which would be addressed in the process of developing, shall we say, the regulations, inasmuch as I presume the first cut will be modified as we move down this process of conferral and formal comments. It would seem to me that, one, the question of interim regulations, which will be merely a modification of existing regulations as is required by changes in the law, is on one track. The development of regulations which will govern prospectively and must go through the several different steps which I enumerated a moment ago. With regard to the steps in that development, we intend to sit down and meet with the Congress, the Governors, and other interested parties, but certainly the Congress and the Governors, as an essential first step in the process. Those regulations will not be final within 90 days, there just isn't time to do it.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I won't take much more time because we have many more questions, but I would hope we could get more specific commitment from your office on that process of consultation. I have so far heard you say in response to my

Mr. DWIGHT. Perhaps I could give two specific commitments. One is we will have interim regulations issued and published before December 24. If you wish to be consulted on them, that should present no problem. I did not anticipate that you would want to be consulted on these because these are merely a recitation of the law, modifying existing regulations as the law requires.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I would think we would want to be consulted on those regulations, and I would have thought, in view of the criticisms leveled by the chairman of this subcommittee, and others, and our apprehensions of the intention of your office to comply with the intents. of the Congress, you would, in your own self-defense, want to be sure you were not going down the wrong track and running into a stone wall.

Mr. DWIGHT. This is not the normal way we address the issuance of regulations.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I understand, but in this whole area-one can point to other areas to put it as bluntly as I can, we have strong reservations about the extent to which you intend to obey the law.

Mr. DWIGHT. We would be hopeful in developing these regulations we could disabuse you of that apprehension.

Mr. BRADEMAS. One way you could do it is to sit down and talk to us. You can pick a time certain and not have the horses let out of the barn. Come talk to us before December 15 when we adjourn.

Mr. DWIGHT. We will do that on the interim regulations. I can't on the full-blown regulations because I am not sure when they will be along.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I don't ask the impossible. I ask you what I think is reasonable.

Mr. QUIE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Let me ask one further question. I hope you can give this committee assurance that there will be consultation with respect to the interim regulations as well as the other regulations prior to the end of the 90-day period with the State vocational rehabilitation administrators. Have you consulted with them so far on either of these matters?

Mr. DWIGHT. No; I do not believe on the latter matter of interim regulations, although there has been consultation as regards the regulations that will be full regulations. There has been consultation there, but not on the interim regulations.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Will there be?

Mr. DWIGHT. There was none contemplated.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Don't you think in light of the questions this committee is raising and criticisms you heard this morning there should be? Mr. DWIGHT. In my judgment there is not sufficient time. Those regulations have not been finalized for submission to the Secretary. Mr. BRADEMAS. That is the chicken and the egg. Then you could tell us they have been issued. I would suggest in your own interest, in view of the very widespread criticism which you must be aware of and which you heard voiced this morning, of the manner in which you propose to carry out the law, that you consult with these people. I feel it is as plain as the nose on your face you are getting a lot of criticism across the country. I am making what I think is a reasonable suggestion in your own interest.

Mr. Quie.

Mr. QUIE. I want to be sure I understand. You have an agreement with Mr. Dwight on the interim regulations that he will come and talk to the committee before their implementation, that is prior to December 15?

Mr. BRADEMAS. Yes.

Mr. QUIE. You did say they are not coming forward with the permanent regulations?

Mr. BRADEMAS. I hope he would do that. I did not mean the first commitment to exclude the second.

Mr. QUIE. What happens on the permanent regulations?

Mr. DWIGHT. Congressman Quie, the permanent regulations, I am not sure I can guarantee the permanent regulations will be ready for discussion with anybody by the 15th.

Mr. QUIE. You will discuss the regulations with us, though?

Mr. DWIGHT. Our intention will be to go through two or three steps with regard to the issuance of the new, permanent regulations. One