(Off the record discussion.)

Mr. DROEGE. The problem in trying to compare the air tankers is that there is quite a variance in size-ranging from planes that can haul 3,000 gallons down to those hauling 600 gallons.

But we can give you a rate scale for comparable planes in different areas if that would be satisfactory.

Mr. McDADE. That will be fine. (The information follows:)

NATIONAL FOREST MANAGEMENT AND PROTECTION, COSTS, AND REVENUES PER ACRE

Mr. McDADE. Let me pursue one other matter with you.

Is there any way you can tell me expressing it in terms of acres the justifications indicate about 180 million acres under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service. Is that right?

Mr. CLIFF. 187 million acres.

Mr. McDADE. Is there any way you can estimate for me the cost per acre to the taxpayers in terms of appropriated funds in managing and protecting those acres and how much revenue we get on a per-acre basis into the general receipts of the Treasury?

(NOTE: A statement was filed with the committee.)

Mr. CLIFF. We could give you average figures or we could give you refined figures for each section of the country or each national forest on the income and the outgo.

Mrs. HANSEN. Please do this for each national forest.

Mr. M. NELSON. That will be our operation and maintenance of the national forest and not involved with the State and private forestry or research?

Mr. McDADE. Just the national forest, yes, just your direct responsibilities.

Mr. DROEGE. For further clarification on that question, do you want the investment cost of one particular year? Some of the investments, like our roads, have a long-term life of at least 20 years. This involves operation and maintenance plus investment costs.

Mr. McDADE. I want your costs in the broadest sense of the word. Mr. M. NELSON. In the past we have worked up similar figures for the national forests as a whole based on our costs in operation and maintenance and treated the capital investments as a depreciation items. Tht would be one way.

That would be more like a company would show their investments. Mr. CLIFF. I am sure the committee understands that many of our activities provide benefits for which we get no revenue.

(Information requested follows:)

Mrs. HANSEN. We are well aware of that.

NONREVENUE-PRODUCING ACTIVITIES WATERSHED PROTECTION

Mr. CLIFF. Watershed protection is a major activity in the national forest. It is part of our charge to protect the environment. We get no revenue from the water which originates on the national forests, or for the efforts that are made to keep that water clean. This is a contribution to the general public. It is an important one.

There are revenues from the mining activities but except for mineral leases on acquired land, they don't show up in our national forest revenue statements.

Mr. McDADE. Where doesn't it show

up?

MINING ACTIVITIES

Mr. CLIFF. For mining of locatable mineral on the national forests created from the public domain lands. Under the 1872 mining laws, there is no revenue and yet there is a big workload involved in administering the mining laws.

Mr. M. NELSON. There is an estimated $23 million received by the Federal Government from mining permits and leases on the public domain lands of the national forests and that goes into Interior's receipts.

To show the full picture of the national forest, I would think we would want to include that type of an income.

Mr. CLIFF. It is only under the leasing laws where the Federal Government gets any revenue. The hard rock minerals, on public domain, are administered under the 1872 mining laws. This is the discovery and location system. No revenues accrue to the Federal Government except through income taxes later on if the mining companies make any money.

Mr. McDADE. If a prospector makes a discovery, he doesn't pay royalty?

Mr. CLIFF. That is correct.

Mr. McDADE. This is an 1872 law?

Mr. CLIFF. That is correct.

Mr. McDADE. Are such discoveries being made in the national forests now?

Mr. CLIFF. Yes, sir.

Mr. McDADE. What kind of minerals?

Mr. CLIFF. All the hard rock minerals. Gold, lead, silver, zinc, molybdenum, copper, and others.

Mr. McDADE. Is it the position of the Forest Service that the 1872 law remain unchanged?

Mr. CLIFF. No, we think it should be changed. It should be modernized and changed to give us better onnortunity to coordinate mining activity with other land activities. We have recommended changes to the Public Land Law Review Commission. No doubt Congress will be considering changes in mining laws this session.

Mr. McDADE. How much money are we talking about?

Mr. CLIFF. I have no idea how much we are talking about under the location system. Certain minerals are subject to leasing-coal, oil, gas,

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