I think we may expect over the coming years that we will continue to need some gradual increases similar to those we have received over the past 7 years.

Now, we expect, Mr. Chairman, quite frankly, at some point that we will reach an apex. In other words, what we are striving to do insofar as possible in all of these programs is to bring the Indian up to a health and sanitation standard which is comparable to his neighbors, to bring him up to an educational status which is comparable, and where he will gradually be integrated into the American community just as any of the rest of Americans.

This is going to take a long time, though we have already succeeded in many areas, in moving the Indians' health programs and sanitation programs into the community. This is a very gradual thing and I would hesitate to give a date when we could expect that we would have completely attained this end. It will take many years yet.

Mr. ROBERTS. I note that on page 11, Mr. Pond, of your statement, you speak of specialized facilities used in support of research such as animal resource centers.

Now, the question occurs to me: Do you set any construction standards in this area for contributing to the comfort of the animals used in the experimentation?

Mr. POND. Mr. Chairman, in the development of projects of this type, the applicant has certain basic standards obviously that he tries to meet. I will have to refer to Dr. Hundley who is better informed on this particular problem than I. We do not have, to my knowledge, any specific detailed standards for animal resources cen

ters.

Dr. HUNDLEY. We do have now, Mr. Chairman, to some extent. A contract was let by the National Institutes of Health, to an outside organization. It resulted in a quite comprehensive description of what constitutes humane and proper care of animals as to feeding, housing, and so on. These were received about 10 days ago. They are being published. Once published we intend to promote their use. Also, we do currently require that all grantees observe humane, sanitary care for any animals that might be used in their experiments. Mr. ROBERTS. Of course, you know we are familiar with the fact we are using vast numbers and that from the press and from some of the recent occurrences in Virginia and, I believe NIH had a contract for the use of these animals, I feel that construction of proper facilities has not quite kept up with the growth of the use of these animals. We are familiar, of course, with the fact that Food and Drug has made some progress in this direction and that they have, I believe, recommended going from cages to runways.

I would like for you to supply for the record any additional data that you may have in connection with this problem.

Mr. POND. We would be happy to do that, sir.

(NOTE. This has been supplied to the committee.)

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Springer, do you have some questions?

Mr. SPRINGER. Yes.

I think I would have preferred to have asked these questions of Dr. Shannon, but in view of the fact I have been in and out on several things, I will direct them to Dr. Terry.

Dr. Terry, this is chart 1 of Dr. Shannon's statement. Do you have that?

Dr. TERRY. I will get it in a moment, Mr. Springer.

Mr. SPRINGER. If you will just look at that for a moment, please. Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir. I have it.

Mr. SPRINGER. Now, this chart 1 for the record is NIH change in organization, research, noncategorical, categorical, and services. Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. Now, as I understand this chart, this is a complete outline of all of the various categories in which you do research.

Dr. TERRY. This is an outline of the organizational pattern, yes, sir, a complete organizational pattern of the National Institutes of Health as it existed in 1930, again in 1948, and at the present time. Mr. SPRINGER. Now, for each one of those categories do you have a Board?

Dr. TERRY. It varies a bit. For instance, let me start with the second line.

Each of those Institutes has a National Advisory Council which is established by or pursuant to law. In addition to that, many of the Institutes have various special committees such as training committees, committees called Boards of Scientific Counselors for advice on their intramural research program. Each of those Institutes has a Council and has several other advisory groups depending upon the needs of their particular programs.

The Division of Biologics Standards has several advisory groups. For instance, there is a Board of Scientific Counselors and two advisory groups in relation to poliomyelitis vaccine.

The Division of Research Facilities and Resources has a Council which reviews proposals for construction of research facilities. Mr. SPRINGER. Which one was that, Dr. Terry, please?

Dr. TERRY. Research Facilities and Resources, the second block in the top line.

Mr. SPRINGER. All right.

Dr. TERRY. The third and fourth, General Medical Sciences and Child Health and Human Development, were just authorized by Congress as Institutes in addition to the seven on the line below, and their authorizations provided for the establishment of a National Advisory Council to each.

So, the two new Institutes and all seven of the other Institutes have National Advisory Councils which are statutory in origin.

Mr. SPRINGER. May I just state at this point, I think you have covered pretty well what I had in mind.

Now, first of all, what is the purpose of those Boards and those Councils?

Dr. TERRY. Mr. Chairman, this is covered to a considerable extent in the background print, but let me sum it up for you very briefly: The nature of the Council or Committee, the composition and the functions will vary depending upon the particular circumstances. On those Councils which are statutory in nature, the composition is prescribed.

Let me take the example of the National Advisory Heart Council. The statute requires that the Council consist of 12 outside persons, of whom at least six must be specialists.

Mr. SPRINGER. Might I just digress for a moment? Let that ride for a second, Dr. Terry.

Would you go back to Research Facilities and Resources?
Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. What is the purpose of the Board there?

Dr. TERRY. The purpose of this Council is to advise and to assist the Surgeon General on this program and to recommend approval or disapproval of application for grants, for Federal funds to be allocated for the construction of research facilities as well as amounts. Mr. SPRINGER. Is that statutory?

Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. How many are on that board?
Dr. TERRY. I believe it is 12.

Mr. SPRINGER. Twelve?
Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. Who appoints those members?

Dr. TERRY. Those members are appointed by the Secretary on recommendation from the program area, the National Institutes of Health, and the Surgeon General.

Mr. SPRINGER. All right.

Now, are there any restrictions on the qualifications of those members?

Dr. TERRY. There are certain statutory restrictions that I just mentioned in terms that certain numbers have to be specialists in the field. Mr. SPRINGER. Specialist in the field of

Dr. TERRY. I don't believe there is any such in particular in relation to research facilities, is there? What is the restriction?

Dr. HUNDLEY. You will find it in your background legal print, Mr. Springer.

The law in this case reads as follows:

There is hereby established in the Public Health Service a National Advisory Council on Health Research Facilities consisting of the Surgeon General of the Public Health Service who shall be Chairman, and an official of the National Science Foundation designated by the National Science Board, who shall be ex officio members, and 12 members appointed by the Secretary without regard to civil service laws. Four of the members selected from the general public and eight shall be selected from leading mental, dental, or scientific authorities who are skilled in the sciences related to health

and so on.

That is on pages 111 and 112.

Mr. SPRINGER. I have that. Thank you.

Now, Dr. Terry, all of these other boards are something similar to the one that has been described heretofore; is that correct?

Dr. TERRY. There are certain features in common with all of them, Mr. Springer, though they do differ in certain respects.

Mr. SPRINGER. All right.

Now, are all of these appointed by the Secretary except those designated by law?

Dr. TERRY. There is a variation. For instance, we have two advisory groups that are Presidentially appointed. One is the Federal Water Pollution Control Board, and the other is the Board of Regents of the National Library of Medicine.

There is one other appointed by the Secretary, the Federal Hospital Council; most of them are appointed by the Surgeon General. Mr. SPRINGER. Most of them?

Dr. TERRY. Most of them; yes.

Mr. SPRINGER. That is you?

Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir; at the moment, at least.

Mr. SPRINGER. At the moment.

How long have you been Surgeon General?

Dr. TERRY. I have been Surgeon General-my official appointment dates from March 2, 1961.

Mr. SPRINGER. Who preceded you?

Dr. TERRY. Dr. Leroy Burney.

Mr. SPRINGER. All right.

Now, generally, from what economic group, what professional group, do the great majority of these appointees come?

Dr. TERRY. Most of the appointees, naturally, come from the professional groups, from the groups related to health.

Now, obviously, if it is a nursing committee, it will consist very heavily of persons from the field of nursing.

For instance, if it is an advisory council to the Heart Institute, it consists largely of physicians.

Certain others consists of other persons such as dentists and so forth.

Mr. SPRINGER. Let me ask you this, Dr. Terry: How many, roughly, of this group at the present time come from the professional groups such as presidents of colleges or administrators of programs within colleges?

Dr. TERRY. I would say it is close to half.

Mr. SPRINGER. Now, there is no conflict of interest that is applicable to these various boards, is there?

Dr. HUNDLEY. Yes, indeed. Very specifically, sir.

Dr. TERRY. Dr. Hundley could give you the specifics on this. Dr. HUNDLEY. There are both laws and Presidential regulations that impose specific conflict-of-interest responsibilities on the members of councils and on ourselves as staff to see that there is no conflict of interest. Each of the members has to supply certain information on their financial interests so that a determination can be made.

Mr. SPRINGER. I get your point. Thank you very kindly.

Dr. Terry, suppose that the University of Siwash has a member of the board. They also have a great research center. Is there any conflict of interest if the president of Siwash sits on the board and gets a grant?

Dr. TERRY. Mr. Springer, the operation of these advisory boards and councils is so arranged that I think conflict of interest is avoided. For instance, if a member of the board is from the University of Siwash, as you suggest, and an application for a grant from that university came up for consideration, during the time it was considered and voted upon, he would leave the room and not participate either in the discussion or the voting unless the members of the council wished him to come back in to give specific information which was not included in the information at hand.

In the study sections, for instance, there is a very specific administrative requirement on our part that an application coming from an institution will be referred to a study section for scientific review which does not have a member from the same institution.

We are very conscious of the potential problem here and make a uniform and effective effort to avoid placing either the individual or ourselves in an embarrassing circumstance.

Dr. HUNDLEY. I might also add to that, Mr. Springer, that we have from time to time made some studies of the actions of study sections trying to compare the rate of approval of applications from institutions which happened to have a member in the scientific review group. These have shown that there is no evidence of bias. We would be glad to supply that kind of data to you.

Mr. SPRINGER. How often do you make such a study?
Dr. HUNDLEY. The last one was about a year ago.
Mr. SPRINGER. And that covered how many cases?
Dr. HUNDLEY. I think it was a year's operation, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. Every single application that was made?

Dr. HUNDLEY. No, because we had to find instances where applications were coming before a particular group which did or did not have this potential conflict-of-interest situation.

Mr. SPRINGER. Let me ask you this, then, since you are answering these questions: Do you have any estimate of the amount of money that have been granted to a particular institution while either a president or an administrator or a member of the staff of that university was a member of the board?

That is a difficult question.

Dr. HUNDLEY. I don't believe we have ever done that specifically Mr. SPRINGER. Is there any instance, Dr. Terry, to your knowledge, where a member of NIH ever left NIH's staff and went to another institution and then a loan was made to that institution subsequently? Dr. TERRY. A loan or grant?

Mr. SPRINGER. Any money passing. I don't care if it was a loan or grant.

Dr. TERRY. I am sure there are numerous such examples. There are a large number of people over the years who have moved from the National Institutes of Health to various institutions. I think you must appreciate that that particular type of personnel that we have at the National Institutes of Health is most similar to the type of personnel in medical schools, universities, and other teaching institutions, so that it is natural that any changes that would take place in terms of personnel moving from one area to the other would be very heavily toward the university environment.

Mr. SPRINGER. Dr. Terry, do you have authority to grant in any way money for the salary of any individual within any institution? Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. You do?

Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPRINGER. Do you do that on many occasions?

Dr. TERRY. Yes, sir. We have quite a few in our research career program. We have a large number of persons who are granted salaries on application from the individual and the university to the Public Health Service.

Mr. SPRINGER. Do you know of any occasion in which personnel have left NIH and gone to work for some other organization and had his salary substantially increased by a grant from you?

Dr. TERRY. I don't know of a specific one, Mr. Springer.

Mr. SPRINGER. You say you don't know.

Dr. TERRY. I do not know. I do not say that such a thing has not existed, but I do not know.

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