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aptain McKENZIE. All our vessels are running in international ers and to the west coast and to the east coast. Ir. KORNEGAY. I was thinking about smaller vessels. You don't e any smaller ones operating? Captain MCKENZIE. No. We don't have any smaller vessels. All have is this barge, that is all, but there are barge lines, as I said in statement, running interisland. Their tonnages are around about housand tons. vir. KORNEGAY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Vr. ROGERS of Texas. Mr. Broyhill? Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. I am not sure I understand this. ly one vessel would be affected by this proposed legislation; is that rect? Captain MCKENZIE. That is the way it appears. Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. This vessel is already in operan in the Hawaiian waters. Is that right? Captain McKENZIE. That is right. Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. And it is already equipped with diotelegraph equipment. Captain MCKENZIE. No. This vessel is actually a barge. Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. It is a barge. Captain McKENZIE. Now it is a barge. Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. It is already equipped with diotelegraph? Captain MCKENZIE. No. It hasn't been installed. Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. It has not? Captain McKenzie. No. You see, we are towing it with a tug, 3,10-horsepower tug. Mr. BROYHILL of North Carolina. No other questions. Mr. Rogers of Texas. Captain, now, what size is this barge? What onnage? Captain McKENZIE. The barge is 300 feet long. Mr. Rogers of Texas. What tonnage would it be with regard to de 1.600 ?

Captain McKENZIE. Right now is is 3,400, of course. If we put an ngine in it, it will go up to about 5,000. Mr. Rogers of Texas. But as I understand it, as a barge it is not ffected by the present law because it is not self-propelled. Captain McKENZIE. That is right. Mr. Rogers of Texas. So you wouldn't have any difficulty. So this s actually a new venture that you are all moving into. Captain McKENZIE. That is correct. Mr. ROGERS of Texas. And actually it involves cargo, does it not? Captain McKENZIE. Yes, it does. Mr. Rogers of Texas. You are not interested in the passenger situation here because the ships that you use or the vessels that you use for passenger traffic between those islands are the same ships that travel from Los Angeles and San Francisco to the Hawaiian Islands.

Captain McKENZIE. That is correct.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Do you intend to enlarge this operation to move into a new area and try to explore the situation here that may have an impact, either good or bad, on traffic of this kind ?

Captain McKENZIE, No. We are just—we have only got these major ports on each island, and that is all we are going to go to.

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Mr. ROGERS of Texas. And it isn't your intention to enlarge—I mezzo put on more barges like this. Convert more.

thatCaptain MCKENZIE. Well, this naturally will increase business to

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Ната Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Sure. I understand that.

Captain McKENZIE. And we might see fit a year from now to buil? another vessel.

C Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Well, the question was prompted by the ir: M formation I got out of-I believe it was the motion for reconsideration in which it was pointed out that this could—if it was expanded out ableprobably revolutionize, well, intercoastal trade in some areas. Is that

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gues Captain McKENZIE. It could be in containers going from this

M going from this small vessel on to the larger vessel which we are doing

there right now, and then the large vessel carries it to the west coast. Te haven't gotten into the east coast yet, but we just don't have enough ther containers to step into that end of it. Mr. Rogers of Texas. But you do hope to move forward in this

C Captain MCKENZIE. We are moving. Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Making progress.

Captain MCKENZIE. We are making such strides in this it is na believable, and it is saving the people in the islands a considerable amount of money in shipping costs.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Well, now, Captain, let me ask you this question. In the Great Lakes situation, as I understood Commissioner Bartley, a ship coming into the Great Lakes trade, if it is a foreign ship equipped only with radiotelegraph, then it must have radiotelephone because in order to operate in the Great Lakes, you must have radiotelephone.

Captain McKENZIE. That is right.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Do you also have to have radiotelegraph or just radiotelephone?

Captain McKENZIE. No. They don't need radiotelegraph in the Great Lakes at all. It is the radiotelephone that is required now.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Do you know whether or not this transition or this installation of this equipment is done very many times? Mans or most foreign ships come in there and have that installed to go into the Great Lakes?

Captain McKENZIE. I am not familiar on that but just what Mr. Bartley said there, if the vessel comes in and doesn't have the radiotelephone, they have got to put it on, and I imagine that knowing they were going to go to the area of the Great Lakes and were going to have to put one on, they will probably do it in their own country. It would be considerably cheaper.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. Well, now, what about your language barrier in the Hawaiian Islands? Do you anticipate any trouble with language barrier there? Captain McKENZIE. Well, the foreign ships, we have

very They are just calling to Honolulu. Actually on the interisland trade, it is just local ships, but we do have some occasional foreign ship that, most of them, I would say practically every ship has this telephone if they are on that run because this is the only way of real good communicating

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and Mr. Rogers of Texas. Sure. Well, now, Captain, is it your feeling

that—well, of course, you are interested in the Matson Lines and their activities, probably the primary reason that this was confined to the Hawaiian Islands, but insofar as this so-called language barrier is concerned, you would have none in the Hawaiian Islands that you know of at all.

Captain MCKENZIE. None at all.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Could you say that the reason that this could not be extended to all coastal areas just by one fell swoop would probFBI-ably be the language barrier, a matter that should be studied ? os Captain McKENZIE. Well, yes. Maybe it should be looked into. I

guess this is what the FCC will do. * Mr. ROGERS of Texas. Now, the reason I ask that question is that

there have been some statements by the departments downtown to the effect that so far as they know, the radiotelephone is safe all right but they raise some issue as to why this is being confined to the Hawaiian Islands and not extended to other coastal areas.

Captain McKENZIE. We just don't have the foreign ships operating around the Hawaiian Islands area like you do on the Pacific coast or the Atlantic coast.

Mr. Rogers of Texas. How many countries are participants to that or signatories to that convention, do you know? Captain MCKENZIE. I could ask-Fischer ?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't know offhand but just about all the shipping countries of the world are signatories here.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. But the extension of this particular situation to all coastal areas would actually require a new meeting to draft new terms or new conventions, wouldn't it?

Captain McKENZIE. Yes; it would.
Mr. Rogers of Texas. In order to meet the language barrier.
Thank you very much, Captain.

Are there any other questions now of Captain McKenzie, and then we will go to Mr. James Brown. Mr. Brown, I see you have a statement.

Mr. BROWN. Thank you.

I am James A. Brown, project engineer, Engineering Development Department, Matson Navigation Co., 215 Market Street, San Francisco, Calif. Thank you for the opportunity to make this statement.

Matson Navigation Co., a nonsubsidized steamship company whose operations are centered in Hawaii, supports H.R. 8508 which would permit the use of radiotelephone instead of radiotelegraph as a safety communications system on board a ship in the course of a voyage between Hawaiian ports when the voyage does not take the ship more than 50 miles from land. We support it first, because radiotelephone makes a better safety communications system in Hawaiian waters and second, because it will foster the development of an experimental semiautomated vessel of great importance to Matson, and to Hawaiian shipping. Capt. R. J. McKenzie, marine operations superintendent of Matson Navigation Co. in Hawaii, has already discussed why it is that radiotelephone is a better safety communications system in Hawaiian waters. I would like to take a few minutes to discuss the development of the experimental vessel and its relationship to H.R. 8508.

Six years ago, Matson inaugurated a cargo container service between the Pacific coast and Honolulu, as part of a program to mod

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