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Mr. FOGARTY. I think the fact that the 20-man Advisory Board would be set up that would advise the Commission, that would carry considerable weight with all the agencies of Government. And I think that when a decision has been made on the recommendations of the Advisory Board, why that is almost a mandate, I would say, if they want to do something about age.

If the people do not want to do anything about it, and let it drift like it has been drifting all these years, why they won't do their part. But I think this would stimulate the agencies and I do not know of any other way you are going to stimulate the States to do something and get some action programs underway.

Mr. O'Hara. I might add at this point that those portions of your bill that deal with these intensive grants and our aids to the States and encouragement in the States to set up proper programs and aid to local projects has met with a very favorable response with every witness I have heard.

Mr. FOGARTY. Well, the administration has recommended to the States that they set up independent commissions just like this. We did it in Rhode Island 7 or 8 years ago, and it has worked out very well. There was a recommendation made by the special staff on aging, as I mentioned in my talk this morning, and I cannot see, if it is good for the States, why it is not much better for the Federal Government.

Mr. O'HARA. It seems to have worked out very well in the States that have done it.

Mr. FOGARTY. There is not a State in the 50 that is doing a good job in aging today that you would want to brag about or I would brag about.

Mr. O'HARA. But we have found considerable improvement in what the States have done, if they have set up their commission that you speak of. They seem to be functioning better than they were before, and I wondered if the gentleman has considered setting up some sort of a bureau in the Executive Office of the President that would report directly to the President, and if he thinks that doing it in that fashion might result in a greater force for the recommendations of the group

Mr. FOGARTY. Well, I do not know what the difference is in an independent commission and a special bureau. There is not much difference, in the way I look at it. This Commission is responsible to the President.

Mr. O'HARA. Yes. Well, I want toMr. Fogarty. It is such a huge and complex problem, I think we all agree that unless something like this is done, we are just going to talk about it for the next 15 years, as we have been doing for the past 15 years. I have been asking the same question for 16 years now in the Appropriations Committee, every year, and it has not been getting

Mr. O'HARA. Well, I wish to compliment the gentleman for his activity in this regard, and for the thought and the work that is obviously behind his efforts on behalf of the agency, and I think that when I do so, I am expressing the sentiments of the vast majority of those witnesses who appeared before this committee, so we thank you.

Mr. BAILEY. Mrs. Hansen?

Mrs. HANSEN. In the first place, I apologize, Congressman Fogarty, for being late, I am sorry I was detained.

any better.

I would like to ask if this is not your contemplation of this commission: That it would serve in perhaps the same type of organizational way as ARA is doing at the present time, to stimulate these other agencies to bring the problems in. When your commission has pinpointed a problem, they can go specifically to one of the agencies and say “do this” and with the use of the public understanding behind it, would that not be true?

Mr. FOGARTY. It would. It would also stimulate the States, because the States are not going to come up with any real good programs unless they get some encouragement from the Federal Goverment.

Mrs. HANSEN. I was going to say, is it not true that in the various States, there is the problem of too little money, and the legislation sessions are of very short duration, and they sometimes fail to take in the broad viewpoints, and fail to provide for some of the planning that could be done, and that does need some guidance someplace, and some assistance?

Mr. FOGARTY. It surely does, and I do not know of any other way we are going to do it, unless we do it through this method.

Mrs. HANSEN. I completely agree.

Mr. FOGARTY. The other ways have been tried, and they have not worked.

Mrs. HANSEN. Well, may I say to the gentleman from Rhode Island, in my experience in legislatures, the turnover is very terrific in Staté legislatures. They move on to some other body and the terms or duration of the sessions is very short; they are faced with a multiplicity of problems which they cannot solve in the time the constitutions of their States set, and so they avoid some of the planning programs and planning phases that are needed so desperately now, particularly in the fields of education and aging, and other problems.

Mr. FOGARTY. Thank you.

Mr. BAILEY. Mr. Fogarty, the introduction of this legislation on your part has attracted nationwide attention, and I want to say this in a complimentary way, due to the fact that you have been able to accomplish so much in the field of health, it cannot be ignored, and it brings forcibly to the attention of the committee the fact that problems of the aged and aging have been somewhat neglected over the years by the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, in that they have not developed this program to the extent they have developed some others.

We had hearings last week in Wheeling, W. Va., one of the largest cities in my district. There the State, we learned, has an independent commission set up, appointed by the Governor.

A gentleman very prominent in business and social circles in West Virginia testified on behalf of the State Commission, Dr. Kirkpatrick, president of the University Board of Governors. He is also vice president of the Wheeling Steel Corp. Very interesting testimony, largely along the line of the need for some independent action in this particular field.

We cannot longer ignore the problems in this particular group. I believe I have been informed in testimony before the committee that there are some 17 million people throughout the entire Nation in this category of being aged, and that their problems are quite numerous, and quite emergent.

87006—62-pt. 1-21

Unfortunately, we have allowed the discussion of the health bill to get into our hearing over at Wheeling, and there happened to be some members of the medical profession there, but of course, I like to hear everybody, and we heard their story, but we tried to keep it from being involved in this particular piece of legislation.

I am sure that we need to put some more direct effort back of this program.

I think that the committee itself, maybe, has allowed these hearings to drag out. While we have held hearings in several of the States, and have one or two more planned, we have not been active as we have in some of the other programs, in other legislation before the committee, but I think it is time we renewed our efforts to try to bring this legislation to the point of where we can either reject it or report it favorably for action out.

In regard to your particular bill there, you would propose an independent commission carrying practically all of the authority that now is held by some 10 or 12 other departments of Government.

Would you mind enumerating for the record what those other governmental units are that would be interested in legislation?

Mr. FOGARTY. Well, first we have HEW. We have the Department of Labor, the Department of Agriculture, the Housing and Home Finance Agency, the Interior Department. Those are 5 or 6 I can think of right away, but there are 12.

Mr. BAILEY. You have six of them enumerated. Mr. FOGARTY. I am trying to think of the others. I cannot think of them.

Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, we might ask just for the record that the other additional agencies be supplied.

Mr. FOGARTY. I will supply them for the record; yes.
Mr. BAILEY. Will you supply those for the printed record ?
Mr. FOGARTY. Yes.
(The material referred to follows:)

GOVERNMENT AGENCIES CONCERNED WITH WORKING FOR OLDER PEOPLE
Department of Agriculture

Department of Labor Civil Service Commission

Railroad Retirement Board
Department of Commerce

Small Business Administration
Department of Health, Education, and Treasury Department
Welfare

Veterans' Administration
Housing and Home Finance Agency

Mr. BAILEY. Now this advisory committee of 20—would the committee get from that that possibly these various units that are not functioning in this field would be represented on this advisory committee?

Mr. FOGARTY. No; this would be a citizens' advisory committee, the same as we have in health agencies and

Mr. BAILEY. Not necessarily from the various units that are now interested.

Mr. FOGARTY. No; they would not be with the Government agencies. The same way we set up advisory committees on juvenile delinquency and all of the health grants of the Institutes of Health, and the President's Committee on Mental Retardation, and all of these are set up the same way. They are all distinguished men in that particular field that have no connection with the Federal Government.

Mr. BAILEY. We have here in the files of the committee petitions from the State of Rhode Island in support of Mr. Fogarty's legislation. If there is no objection, I would like to have them submitted for inclusion in the record at this point.

(The material referred to follows:)

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS,

DIVISION ON AGING,

Providence, R.I., April 12, 1962. Hon. CLEVELAND M. BAILEY, Chairman, Education and Labor Committee, House of Representatives, House

Office Building, Washington, D.C. DEAR REPRESENTATIVE BAILEY: The Rhode Island Division on Aging within the executive department would like to go on record in support of H.R. 10014 and S. 2779, bills to establish a permanent and independent U.S. Commission on Aging.

I hope that you will do all in your power to promote passage of this bill.
Thank you.
Sincerely yours,

MARY C. MULVEY, Administrator.

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS,

DIVISION ON AGING,

Providence, R.I., April 12, 1962. Hon. CLEVELAND M. BAILEY, Chairman, Education and Labor Committee, House of Representatives, House

Office Building, Washington, D.C. DEAR REPRESENTATIVE BAILEY: The Rhode Island Advisory Committee to the Di ion on Aging within the executive department would like to go on record in support of H.R. 10014 and S. 2779, bills to establish a permanent and inde pendent U.S. Commission on Aging.

I hope that you will do all in your power to promote passage of this bill.
Thank you.
Sincerely yours,

JOHN P. CRONIN,
Chairman, Rhode Island Advisory Committee on Aging.

PETITION, APRIL 13, 1962, PROVIDENCE, R.I. We the undersigned hereby are in agreement with and seek passage of a bill to establish a permanent and independent U.S. Commission on Aging, introduced jointly January 31 by Senator Pat McNamara, Democrat, of Michigan, chairman of the Senate's Special Committee on Aging, and Representative John E. FOgarty, Democrat, of Rhode Island, chairman of the House Subcommittee on Appropriations for the Department of Labor and the Department of Health Education, and Welfare; and do hereby affix our signatures to this effect.

(List of signatures appears in subcommittee files.)

Mr. BAILEY. We deeply appreciate your appearance here, Mr. Fogarty.

Mr. FOGARTY. Thank you, sir. I appreciate the opportunity, but I would like to reiterate that I started asking these questions when Oscar Ewing was head of the Federal Security Administration, before this position became a Cabinet post. I asked Mrs. Hobby the same questions, Mr. Folsom the same question, Mr. Flemming the same question, and Mr. Ribicoff the same question, and the answers have been the same, now, for 16 years: “We are going to do something about it," but the next year they have been forgotten. They have been the forgotten people.

Mr. BAILEY. What are your reactions to Mr. Ribicoff's suggestion that we set up a new department?

Mr. FOGARTY. Well, I don't know enough about it to comment one way or the other on it. I would not want to comment on this suggestion.

Mr. BAILEY. Now this committee will be only responsible directly to the President as an independent setup?

Mr. FOGARTY. Yes, sir. Mr. BAILEY. You have no idea of the cost of an administrative setup of that kind, or have you gone into the details?

Mr. Fogarty. No, I do not know what the administrative costs would be.

Mr. BAILEY. In other words, your approach is that it is a situation that you could not very well put a dollar sign on?

Mr. FOGARTY. No, and I do not know-I am not convinced that that is a necessary thing to know at this time. All I know is that this population explosion of people over the age of 60 or 65 is

Mr. BAILEY. Do you not feel that there is a certain Government responsibility there and maybe some of it might go to you? By your activities in the field of health, you have contributed largely to the longevity of the people of the Nation, and created this particular problem?

Mr. FOGARTY. Well, we hope that the problem increases, if it will extend life, yes.

Mr. BAILEY. Then the Government may have a responsibility to carry through a program that they have already started to improve the health of the Nation.

Mr. FOGARTY. And if it will help to extend life, I hope it keeps on going that way. But if we spend millions of dollars in research in trying to extend life expectancy of human beings, we ought to be preparing on the other side to let them enjoy the last years of their lives, also.

I think that is a Federal responsibility. The States are not going to do it. Unless we step in and do something about it, and take some positive action, we are just going to be accused of doing a lot of talking and no action, and I could not defend that sort of approach.

Mr. BAILEY. Mr. Fogarty, the committee has thoroughly enjoyed listening to your frank statements, and I want to commend you, not only personally, but on behalf of the committee, that you are known in Washington as a man who gets things done.

May I express my own personal wish that you are successful in this? Thank you.

Mr. FOGARTY. Well, a unanimous vote of approval by this committee, of course, for this approach would certainly stimulate me, also, Mr. Chairman, into trying to do more.

Mr. BAILEY. Thank you, Mr. Fogarty.
Mr. FOGARTY. Thank you very much.

Mr. BAILEY. Now the committee has another witness or two to be heard this morning. Mr. Charles Odell, chairman of the Michigan Commission on Aging.

Mr. Odell, you may further identify yourself for the reporter, and proceed with your statement.

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