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That is what I wanted to point out.

With regard to other matters that you raised, I think there is every reason to believe that we are concerned a good deal more about inflation than perhaps you are.

Dr. WARD. It does not sound that way.

Mr. O'HARA. I think we point out that the item which experienced the greatest inflation over the last few years has been the cost in medical service.

Dr. WARD. I think this is explainable, too. Actually doctors' fees have risen in a far less proportion than the rise in the cost of living. However, if you take medical expenses in general, when you include hospitals; yes, it has risen to a significantly greater extent than the average cost of living.

I think this in turn is understandable by the increased technology that goes on in a hospital, the increased number of things that we are doing. We are doing fantastically more in a hospital today than we were doing 10 or 15 years ago.

If you look back 20 years ago, it looks like the dark ages.

As a result of these costs going up your life expectancy has risen, too, and it is because of these things that have been included in medical care today that you have the problem with the aged people. You take your retirement age of 65. I have often wondered where it came from.

I found out recently it was Mr. Bismarck in Germany who selected this age quite arbitrarily when he imposed a system of socialized medicine on Germany and he did so because very few people reached 65. This is the reason age 65 is in effect today.

Today anyone who reaches the age of 65 can expect to live until 80, but we are not letting them work that long.

Mr. O'Hara. I want to make one more point. At any rate, I want to congratulate the medical profession. You brought up this question of inflation.

I am a lawyer. Twenty years ago the relation between doctors' and lawyers' income was one of fairly near rough equality. Since then the doctors, to their credit, have done a lot better in raising their incomes than lawyers have.

The difference between an average doctor and lawyer is remarkable. Socialized medicine, I do not think, is being proposed by anyone here. On the other hand, I do not think it should be left completely uncontradicted that our system is opposed to theirs.

Dr. WARD. We do not think there is much dispute to that. As for your other comments, I will not accuse you of being jealous of the relationship between the physicians and lawyers, but I will say that you are raising some basic philosophy on issues and I think it has to do with socialism, which I think tends to create equality by dragging down from the top rather than raising up from the bottom, which is, I think, better advocated.

Mr. O'HARA. I think you are wrong.

Chairman BAILEY. The Chair will observe we are getting away from the subject of this hearing.

Mr. O'HARA. I am sure you will agree that the King-Anderson bill does not condone socialized medicine.

Dr. Ward. I will disagree about that. Perhaps you will disagree, but I am sure it is just a disagreement. With regard to socialized

medicine, in some countries you will find, as in Great Britain and other places all around the world, authorities who might disagree with your statement that our system is a great deal better than that of their government's system.

At any rate, there is a general agreement, because it is a statistical fact, that ours costs a lot more.

The gross amount spent by the American people far exceeds that spent by the British on medical care. But we are getting about three times as much for it.

Mr. O'HARA. That question, I am sure you are entitled to your opinion and everybody else is, and I do not want to change the system of the medical program of this country. I like it so well I want to make sure everybody else can get some.

Chairman BAILEY. Thank you, Doctor. ,

I have been requested to offer for submission in the record of this hearing a statement by Mrs. VanLandingham of Morgantown, chairman of the various women's groups of the State, that because of illness in the family she was prevented from coming and she asked the privilege of having a statement filed.

If there are no other individuals, the committee will recess until 10 o'clock on Monday next at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

Thank you all for being present.
(The above mentioned statement follows:)


MORGANTOWN, W. VA. I am Mrs. A. H. VanLandingham, a member of the West Virginia Commission on Aging; vice president of the Monongalia Home Corp., which administers the Sundale Convalescent Home, Morgantown; and president of the League of Women Voters of West Virginia. As a professional in the field of recreation, I have continued to study the needs of people and to serve as a community worker in programs of continued education, recreation, and the development of the potentials of individuals regardless of age.

Over 15 years ago, the West Virginia Federation of Women's Clubs initiated a program in gerontology. Many communities responded with Golden Age Clubs, which later became Senior Citizen organizations, and are continuing with varying activities. As a result of the White House Conference, and several State conferences, some local committees have been formed to direct local projects. Guidance and direction are needed.

National and State central agencies are necessary to give status and support to retired people who require much more than financial assistance. Senior centers can provide information for referrals to agencies with a service to give, in health, employment, housing, as well as recreational and educational opportunities. Example: In this changing culture, Mrs. Brown, a widow, desiring to continue her independence, and understanding the strain an aging person places on young families, would have a place to turn for sound information of the choices available to her. Also, a State agency, besides giving guidance and direction, could provide the commission with information, so problems and needs could be evaluated and averted before they become acute. As it is now, the State commission in West Virginia has no way to function effectively without staff and office.

Working with the local senior citizens in Monongalia County has convinced me that senior adults have much to give, but need community interest and support for continued opportunities in education, part-time or full-time work, and choices of housing arrangements as their needs change. Many calls come to men from a member of the family to help solve specific problems. In the Morgantown Senior Citizens Club, which is self-supporting, with their own program and officers, at one meeting over half of those present signed up and are following through as subjects, in a research study on aging, at the university

medical center. They give 10 milliliters of blood four times a year and take vitamins daily (blank or otherwise) and none have dropped out. They even make extra arrangements if planning to be out of town.

Provision for the aging, through action on these bills, can make the difference between the satisfaction, participation, and support from this large segment of the voting population.

(Whereupon, at 4 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Monday, April 9, 1962, at Rutgers University, New Jersey.)




New Brunswick, N.J. The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to recess, in the New Jersey Hall of the University Library of Rutgers University, New Brunswick, N.J., Hon. Dominick Daniels, presiding.

Present: Mr. Ted Ellsworth, special consultant on problems of the aged and aging.

Mr. DANIELS. The General Subcommittee on Education of the House of Representatives will now come to order.

In the absence of the chairman, Cleveland Bailey, of West Virginia, who has been delayed in coming up from Washington, I am acting as the chairman at his request in order to conduct this hearing.

There are several witnesses present who have urgent business to attend to and would like to get away before noon, and therefore, in an effort to accommodate them, I am opening up this meeting in the absence of the chairman, and as per instructions.

I would like to introduce the gentlemen who are sitting with me on this panel. To my extreme right is Dean Madison Weidner, dean of extension, Rutgers University, whom I have had the pleasure to meet on several occasions in the past and I want to thank Dean Weidner for his assistance in many of the problems of education with which our committee has dealt in the past, and particularly problems related to extension.

I also wish to take this opportunity of thanking Rutgers University, Dean Weidner, through you, for permitting us the accommodation of this room here, the New Jersey room of the library. We are indeed grateful for your support and cooperation.

Dean WEIDNER. It is a pleasure to work with you, Mr. Daniels.

Mr. DANIELS. To my immediate right is Dr. Harry Barnard, professor of education of Rutgers University, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting in connection with the work of a subcommittee of education.

He was formerly associated with Congressman Carl Elliott, of Alabama, whose reputation in the area of educational problems is well known in the House of Representatives. Unfortunately, we lost Mr. Elliott last year when he was appointed to the Rules Committee. Dr. Barnard, I have had more intimate and close relations with him in connection with our educational problems and I can say that Rutgers University is indeed fortunate to get a man of his ability and qualifications.

Dr. BARNARD. Thank you.

Mr. DANIELS. To my left is Mr. Ted Ellsworth, special consultant on problems of the aged and aging. Mr. Ellsworth has been connected with this committee and his job is to advise and counsel us with reference to these problems with which he is so knowledgeable.

I would now like to state what the purpose of these hearings are and many conferences that have been held on the problems of the aging including State, local, White House, and regional conferences. Many recommendations have been made. One recommendation was that the Federal Government should assume the responsibility of following up the recommendation. Some of the State conferences proposed that an independent commission, office, or agency be established for the aging.

Others propose that an office be set up in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.

Eleven bills have been introduced that incorporate both approaches. I will proceed to enumerate these bills. One is H.R. 246, introduced by Congressman Libonati of Illinois.

H.R. 280, introduced by Congressman Zablocki.
H.R. 306, introduced by Congressman Bennett.

H.R. 558, introduced by Congressman Rodino, of the State of New Jersey.

H.R. 710, introduced by Congressman Lane.
H.R. 2377, introduced by Congressman Addonizio, of New Jersey.
H.R. 2764, introduced by Congressman Halpern.
H.R. 3071, introduced by Mrs. Pfost.
H.R. 3739, introduced by Congressman Cramer.

H.R. 5030, introduced by Congressman Morgan, and H.R. 10014, introduced by Congressman Fogarty.

The subcommittee will report on these bills. Its members are interested in getting information from various areas and from various segments of the community from the aged citizens and the ordinary citizen as well as from experts and professionals in the field. Questions have been raised such as: Is there any need for an agency on aging at the Federal level ?

Is there a need for Federal financing to encourage State, local and non-Federal projects?

Is there confusion because of lack of coordination among the agencies and because no one agency is totally responsible?

Are there programs that are needed that are being neglected because of lack of funds or because no agency at the present time exists to stimulate action?

If these problems do exist and if there is a need, then what type of agency is needed? What type of Federal support and encouragement is needed

We will now proceed with the hearing, and as the witnesses are called I would suggest that the witnesses give their full name, address, and the name of the organization that he or she represents.

Witnesses that have prepared statements may read their statements, unless they are unusually long, in which event they can submit the statement for filing and summarize the views expressed therein and they may also supplement those views if they so desire.

Our first witness here this morning is Mr. Joel Jacobson representing the AFL-CIO. Mr. Jacobson.

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