NATIONAL WILDERNESS PRESERVATION ACT

FRIDAY, MARCH 1, 1963

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON INTERIOR AND INSULAR AFFAIRS,

Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:03 a.m., in room 3110, New Senate Office Building, Senator Clinton P. Anderson presiding. Present: Senators Anderson, Metcalf, Burdick, Nelson, Allott, and Jordan of Idaho.

Also present: Benton J. Stong, professional staff member.

Senator ANDERSON. I have a statement for the record from a grand old conservationist in New Mexico here which, if there is no objection, I shall put in the record. I'm truly sorry that the author, Elliot Barker, isn't here to present it in person for a few minutes with him is as refreshing as a trip into the outdoors itself.

Some of you will remember that Mr. Barker appeared on the wilderness bill 2 or 3 years ago and was a very colorful and persuasive witness.

(The statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF ELLIOTT BARKER, SANTA FE, N. MEX.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Elliott S. Barker, the "Old Man of the Mountains," who packed into what is now the Pecos Wilderness Area first in 1896, and the last time in November 1962. In between there were hundreds of such trips and, during the last 52 years, my wife has very often accompanied me. I have escorted parties of from 1 to 75 on wilderness trips and never have taken one who did not enjoy it nor one who regretted having made the trip.

I have been on 22 of the 11-day wilderness pack trips sponsored by the American Forestry Association (in charge of 15 of them) in five different States. I have been out on these wilderness trips with about 500 men and women from all walks and stations of life with ages ranging from 13 to 75 years. They have been just average American people from practically every State in the Union. Through the years I have been out with perhaps a thousand others.

The charge made so often by the opponents of wilderness legislation that only the very rich can afford to make a wilderness trip and that only the very strong and hardy people are able to experience the unexcelled thrills of a wilderness trip is to my personal knowledge unadulterated poppycock and completely unfounded and vicious propaganda.

The people who make these trips are just average citizens. I have also had one from Switzerland, one from Poland, one from Sweden, and two from Germany. They are people from all walks of life, doctors, nurses, secretaries, scientists, school and college professors, typists, farmers, lumbermen, beauticians, etc. But the largest group of all on practically every trip are those who list themselves by that glorified title of "Housewife." For the most part they are not rich men's wives either.

A wilderness trip is about the cheapest vacation one can take, and certainly it is the most soul satisfying. The cost will run about a dollar a day for the backpacker, $3 a day for parties of three or four who hike with horse-transported

camp equipment, $8 for horseback, pack-in trips, and $10 or $11 a day for parties of six or more who want a packer-horse wrangler to go along.

Even the deluxe trips where everything is furnished except one's bedroll-horses, saddles, sleeping tents, good food, cooks, packers, wranglers, and even a good medical officer to take care of any possible sickness or accidentsonly costs about $22 per day. That's less than it costs to stay at a good hotel in this city and the scenery here can't begin to compare with God's unspoiled mountains.

In our planning for outdoor recreation for the future we must see to it that we provide a balanced program. Wilderness certainly is a vital part of that program. The Outdoor Recreation Resources Review Commission strongly recommends wilderness legislation as being essential to the preservation of the wilderness system. We cannot ignore that. The Senate's vote of 78 to 8 for S. 174 in the last Congress is a most powerful endorsement.

The greatest pleasure I get out of wilderness is through the joy and delight and training in God's ways that my grandchildren, my friends' children, Boy and Girl Scouts get out of it. Posterity will hold us in utter contempt, and rightly so, if we fail to save for them an adequate system of wilderness areas in their pristine state for their enjoyment.

It should be remembered that wilderness is not a single use but inherently includes many uses. Actually the highest use of most of the existing wilderness areas is for watershed protection. The two uses fit together hand-in-glove. They provide the highest type of hunting and fishing and camping and exploring. They are veritable outdoor museums far superior to anything man can put under a roof.

Stockmen should not be concerned at all with this legislation because the bill specifically provides that grazing may be continued where already established. Provision is made for reservoirs and mining where it is determined to be in the best interests of the public.

Mr. Chairman, in my State of New Mexico I am sure that 90 percent of the people are in favor of this legislation. A small minority of vociferous commercial interests are opposing it for selfish reasons.

Such interests have accused us proponents of wilderness preservation of being selfish in asking that 8 percent of the national forests be kept as wilderness. I would ask them this question, who in reality is being selfish? Those who ask only that 8 percent of the national forest area be preserved in its pristine state for the benefit of present and future generations, or those who now have 92 percent available for exploitation and commercialization and are demanding the remaining 8 percent also? Who is selfish, we ask?

I have testified at length at hearings held here in Washington and in the field on S. 174 and I wish to reaffirm every statement I made at those hearings in supporting without reservation S. 4. It is a good piece of legislation in the best interests of the public.

Senator ANDERSON. We will hear from Mr. Hammerle.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM C. HAMMERLE, FORESTER AND MANAGER OF POLICY PROGRAMS, AMERICAN PULPWOOD ASSOCIATION

Mr. HAMMERLE. Mr. Chairman, I am going to eliminate some items in my written statement in order to save time. I would appreciate it if the entire statement is put in the record.

Senator ANDERSON. We will put the whole statement in the record. Mr. HAMMERLE. I am William C. Hammerle, forester and manager of policy programs for the American Pulpwood Association, with headquarters at 220 East 42d Street, New York City. The American Pulpwood Association is composed of pulpwood producers, dealers, consumers, and others who are directly concerned with the growing and harvesting of pulpwood-the principal raw material used in the manufacture of pulp paper and other forest products.

Two years ago, I presented our association's statement in opposition to S. 174, the wilderness bill, under consideration by this committee in the 87th Congress. I have been advised that this committee has re

quested witnesses to confine themselves insofar as possible to new matter, inasmuch as you have an extensive record on the bill from previous years.

Since the bill now under consideration is identical with S. 174, as amended and passed by the Senate in the 87th Congress, I assume the term "new matter" would apply to the amendments made in the original bill as well as items not covered in our statement of 2 years ago. Accordingly, this statement will attempt to hold to that understanding. You will find all of the items covered are new in relation to our statement 2 years ago.

The pulpwood industry is not opposed to the establishment of a National Wilderness Preservation System to be composed of federally owned lands which will remain under the statutory authority of the present administering agencies. We appreciate the need for some statutory recognition of wilderness and establishment of an orderly procedure for consideration by Congress rather than permitting arbitrary withdrawals by administrative order or regulation. We appre-' ciate the consideration which has been given to wilderness legislation proposals and the constructive changes which have been made. We believe that there remain some objectionable features in the present bill, S. 4, and it is to those items, which should be amended, that we direct this statement.

Analysis of federally owned areas involved: Section 3 of the bill specifies the types of federally owned areas which would be incorporated into the National Wilderness Preservation System under the provisions of the act. The areas involved in these types, as reported by the Forest Service and estimated by the Secretary of the Interior, totals 61,275,011 acres.

Senator ANDERSON. Did you verify that figure when you got it from the Secretary of the Interior or Forest Service?

Mr. HAMMERLE. I got that as of the status of December 31, 1961, from the statement that they turned over to the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs at the hearings last year.

That area is twice as large as the total land area

Senator ANDERSON. You say this was given to the House committee last year?

Mr. HAMMERLE. That is correct.

Senator ANDERSON. I don't know-I thought I read the House testimony carefully. I know nothing of that nature.

Mr. HAMMERLE. That is where I obtained it. The book I have here

Senator ANDERSON. Now, are you saying that there are these numbers of acres in the total Park Service?

Mr. HAMMERLE. That was the Secretary's estimate of the-no, no. That was his estimate of the areas that might be included under the wilderness bill.

Senator ANDERSON. Well, that is strange, because-well, go ahead, I will just request the Park Service again to supply a copy of the statement they made which doesn't show any 22 million acres, nor does the Forest Service.

Mr. HAMMERLE. That is the figure I have. I think Committee Print No. 26 has that list.

Senator ANDERSON. I say that because another witness that is coming on today uses the same figures, and I have been trying my best to

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have people confine their testimony to what the law provides. But if you are real sure of that figure, we will go on.

Mr. HAMMERLE. Committee Print No. 26 of the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs lists the federally owned areas with wilderness characteristics.

Senator ANDERSON. Ah, now, if you say the area of the United States has so many acres of land that could have been used for agriculture but it is used for highways, and so on, would you then agricultural land of the country is so much?

say the

Mr. HAMMERLE. No. My statement was the areas involved in the types

Senator ANDERSON. Have we got the hearings of the House?

Mr. HAMMERLE. And I said as reported by the Forest Service and estimated by the Secretary of the Interior totals 61,275,011 acres. That area is twice as large as the total

Senator ANDERSON. I want you to be real sure that you are not quoting the total amount of land involved in the Park Service.

Mr. HAMMERLE. No, that is both national parks and national wildlife refuges as listed in this report.

Senator ANDERSON. Well, let's see, just one second: I hate to spend so much time on this, but section 3(d) says such portions of the wildlife refuges and game ranges established by effect of this act under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of the Interior as he may recommend out of the whole 27 million acres. Is that what it is? For inclusion? Mr. HAMMERLE. That is the area he estimates might be included in the act. He doesn't say.

Senator ANDERSON. That he estimated?

Mr. HAMMERLE. Well, it was based on his report.

Senator ANDERSON. That is the total number of acres that are included in all these fish and game areas, isn't it?

Mr. HAMMERLE. That is not the total acreage in the national park system or national wildlife refuge system.

Senator ANDERSON. What is the total acreage of the national parks, 22,350,092 acres?

Mr. HAMMERLE. The footnote on this table

Senator ANDERSON. You said that wasn't the total area. Why do you say that?

Mr. HAMMERLE. I said what? I said I don't believe that that is the total area. I think the total area may be more. I am going by the footnote on this table.

Senator ANDERSON. Have we got the House hearings here?

Mr. HAMMERLE. Committee Print No. 26, which is a tabulation. Senator ANDERSON. Go ahead. But I say that I thought that the national park area was about 22,350,000 acres. Do you have a different figure?

Mr. HAMMERLE. This figure shows here for the national park system 22,158,097 acres.

Senator ANDERSON. All right.

Senator ALLOTT. Mr. Chairman, I got 22,099,000.

Senator ANDERSON. Now, is all that included in the bill?

Mr. HAMMERLE. I don't know, because the Secretary will have to determine what areas will be included actually in the bill.

Senator ANDERSON. Your testimony reads, the areas involved in these types, and so on. Is it your testimony that you think 61 million acres are going to be incorporated in the wilderness system?

Mr. HAMMERLE. Mr. Chairman, the only thing I can do is go by what this acreage was as stated in the House committee, which was the latest acreage that I have available, and the footnote, as I tried to say, says this:

This represents the maximum acreage that might be classified as wilderness within these established systems as estimated by the Secretary of the Interior. The Secretary indicated that there might be an additional 947,387 acres in four prospective areas involved in pending legislation for establishment of two national parks and two national recreation areas.

That is the only basis that I have for quoting those figures.

Senator ANDERSON. Well, I only suggest to you that the bill says certain things about the national parks. Now, a park that has less than 5,000 acres in it, would it be included?

Mr. HAMMERLE. I wouldn't think so.

Senator ANDERSON. Neither would I, but you have included it in your figures.

Mr. HAMMERLE. Well, the only thing I am going by is the figures that apparently were turned over to the House committee as being areas that might be subject to inclusion in the system.

Senator ANDERSON. Well

Mr. HAMMERLE. I haven't seen any other figures presented by the Secretary of the Interior.

Senator ANDERSON. The Secretary of the Interior was asked to supply the total number of acres in the park system and he did. But not all the acreage in the park system is subject to this bill or could possibly be subject to it.

Mr. HAMMERLE. Well, I was just going by my interpretation of what was stated in the footnote in committee print No. 26, which is all I have to go on. I don't know of any specific

Senator ANDERSON. That is a staff document of the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs. It is not the Secretary of the Interior, is it?

Mr. HAMMERLE. The statement I read to you is the footnote that implied that this was the Secretary of Interior's estimate.

Senator ANDERSON. Of the amount of

Mr. HAMMERLE. Natural acreage that might be classified as wilderness within these established systems.

Senator ANDERSON. You say that was the statement of the Secretary of the Interior?

Mr. HAMMERLE. That is what it says here.

Senator ANDERSON. That is what the House staff said; not the Secretary of the Interior.

Mr. HAMMERLE. Well, I don't know. It came from the committee. Senator ANDERSON. All right, go ahead.

Mr. HAMMERLE. Following that statement I have there some tabulations as to areas of national forest, and so forth, which were based on this table that I was talking about. I have also shown there the status on national forest land as of January 11, 1963, which is based upon the transfer of about 1,400,000 acres from primitive areas being reclassified as wilderness areas.