Mr. STEELMAN. Is the main argument against this deep mining coal that it costs as much as it does to strip it?

Mr. HECHLER. This is one of the arguments and other arguments have been brought up, as they were this morning, about the problem of safety, the problem of black lung, the problem of manpower and there are many other arguments that crop up, all of which I think can be met and answered persuasively and conclusively.

The first priority, I believe should be to protect our great resources in the soil, the forest, the mountains and the water, all of which are very precious in this country, and all of which are being destroyed by strip mining.

Mr. STEELMAN. No further questions.

Mrs. MINK. Thank you very much.

Excuse me, Mr. Saylor.

Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Hechler, can you tell me how you're going to stop acid mine water coming up from the deep mine?

Mr. HECHLER. It's a little more difficult to prevent acid mine pollution resulting from strip mining because your deep mining acid mine pollution comes from a point source whereas when you rip the top off of the pyrite which is exposed to the rain, which is exposed to the ground water over a much wider area, it then becomes far more difficult to control that type of pollution. The acid pollution from strip mining also permeates the soil, frequently miles away.

Point source pollution is simply a matter of relativity. It's easier to control that type than it is over a very wide area source such as strip mining produces.

I must say to the gentleman from Pennsylvania I am not minimizing at all some of the environmental damages that come from underground mining. I hope this committee in its wisdom would write into the legislation control over the environmental degradation caused by underground mining which I have tried to do in H.R. 1000. You and I know there is plenty of damage from underground mining that requires protection in your State and mine and 29 others.

Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Hechler, I can take you to a place in my own district where there is not a mine, and yet you have all of the same problems with regard to water pollution that you refer to, and there isn't any outcrop anywhere along the line. It just results in that kind of soil that God put there. It's one of those difficult problems that we have as we try to solve the water problem. There is no easy answer to it.

Mr. HECHLER. I agree. There is no easy answer to it. All I am saying is, relatively speaking, there's a greater degree of pollution damage and danger coming from the exposure of large areas of pyrite to rain from the heavens and the waters on the Earth.

Mr. SAYLOR. If you would use the block cut system that we are now using up in Pennsylvania, much of the adverse effects of surface mining could be avoided. Of course, unfortunately, it's the only State that has that requirement.

Mr. HECHLER. I am informed that the block system will work very well on flatter areas, but it presents some problems on the first cut, particularly in steep areas.

Mr. SAYLOR. All I can tell you, in Pennsylvania we haven't had any problems with it.

Mr. HECHLER. We have them in West Virginia. I invite the committee when it goes out to inspect some of these so-called reclaimed areas to ask the difference between reclamation and restoration.

When you have what is called reclamation, which is really revegetation, and when you cut off the entire tops of mountains to provide level land, to provide the base for the type of shallow grass that looks very aesthetic, it does not really restore the soil or enable reforestation. I think you have to ask, is this really restoration or is it a weak attempt at "reclamation."

Mrs. MINK. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Hechler.

Our next witness is Dr. Darnell Whitt, Deputy Administrator for Field Services, Soil Conservation Service, Department of Agricul

ture.

Dr. Whitt, we are pleased to have you here at these meetings.

STATEMENT OF DR. DARNELL WHITT, DEPUTY ADMINISTRATOR FOR FIELD SERVICES, SOIL CONSERVATION SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. WHITT. Madam Chairman, we did not submit a statement, we submitted a report on the separate bills before the Committee and the letter was signed by our Under Secretary.

Mrs. MINK. Your letter, without objection, will be placed in the record at this point.

[The material referred to follows:]

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE,

OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY, Washington, D.C., April 9, 1973.

Hon. JAMES A. HALEY,

Chairman, Committee on Interior

and Insular Affairs,

House of Represenatives

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: This is in response to your request of February 21, 1973, for a report on H.R. 3, H.J.Res. 36, H.R. 181, H.R. 726, H.R. 1000, H.R. 1411, H.R. 1603, H.R. 2380, H.R. 2425, H.R. 2551, H.R. 2677, H.R. 2861, and H.R. 3518, bills providing for the regulation of surface mining operations, and for other purposes.

While recognizing that these bills have many desirable provisions, this Department recommends that the Administration's bill, H.R. 4863, "Mined Area Protection Act of 1973," be enacted instead. The Administration's bill, in most instances, is broader and more comprehensive in scope and applies to both surface and underground mining for all minerals. Furthermore, H.R. 4863 emphasizes the States' responsibility for developing and enforcing environmental regulations for mining operations, provides detailed criteria therefor, and authorizes financial assistance in developing and enforcing such regulations. The general provisions of each of the bills listed in your request are covered in the attached supplement.

The Office of Management and Budget advises that there is no objection to the presentation of this report and that enactment of H.R. 4863 would be in accord with the President's program.

Sincerely,

J. PHIL CAMPBELL,
Under Secretary.

Attachment.

ATTACHMENT TO THE REPORT TO HON. JAMES A. HALEY FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE ON H.R. 3, H. J. RES. 36, H.R. 181, H.R. 726, H.R. 1000, H.R. 1411, H.R. 1603, H.R. 2380, H.R. 2425, H.R. 2551, H.R. 2677, H.R. 2861, and H.R. 3518.

The following is a summary of the general provisions of the various bills relating to surface mining:

H.R. 3, H.R. 726, H.R. 1411, H.R. 2425, AND H.R. 3518

These bills provide for the regulation of surface coal mining for the conservation, acquisition, and reclamation of surface areas affected by coal mining activities. These identical bills providing for the "Coal Mine Surface Area Protection Act of 1973" would authorize the Secretary of the Interior to prescribe rules and regulations for carrying out the Act, including special regulations with respect to open pit coal mining; to issue surface mining permits; to prescribe requirements for reclamation plans; to declare areas unsuitable for surface mining when it would be physically or economically impossible to provide satisfactory reclamation; to acquire and reclaim coal surface mined lands unreclaimed on the date of enactment of the legislation using a revolving reclamation fund established for that purpose.

States could adopt and enforce standards related to the conduct of surface coal mining operations and enforce standards related to the conduct of surface coal mining operations and reclamation, provided State standards are at least as stringent as those developed by the Secretary. The Secretary could make grants to States to assist in such State regulation program. The Secretary is also directed to appoint an Advisory Committee on Coal Mining Research.

H.J.RES. 36

This bill authorizes and directs the Secretary of the Interior to forbid prospecting, exploration, development, or removal of coal deposits by surface mining methods on all public lands and acquired lands of the United States and on all Indian lands, and to prohibit underground coal mining in public and acquired lands in the national forests.

H.R. 181

This bill provides for the restoration of all lands located in the United States upon which strip mining operations are being or have been carried out, and for other purposes. H.R. 181 directs the Secretary of the Interior to develop and implement a national plan for restoration of mined land, also which plan must provide for "the full restoration of all such lands to their condition prior to the date upon which any such mining operation began." The bill provides that no product from a surface mine may be sold, in interstate commerce, after July 1, 1974, unless the mine operator has a restoration plan which has been approved by the Secretary. The Secretary is also authorized to acquire surface-mined land and to effect its restoration. Any such land is to be used for wildlife or recreation purposes following restoration.

H.R. 1000, H.R. 2551, AND H.R. 2677

These bills provide for the control of surface and underground coal mining operations which adversely affect the quality of our environment, and for other purposes.

The proposed legislation which would be administered by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency applies to both surface and underground mining of coal. It prohibits sufrace mining of coal on National Forests, National Wildlife Refuges, National Parks, and underground coal mining in designated wilderness areas. It also prohibits the beginning or renewal of surface mining operations and contour surface mining in any State after the effective date of the proposed Act. Current surface mining operations could be continued under limited permits. Within two months after the effective date of the Act, no surface or underground coal mining operations may be engaged in without a permit issued by the Administrator. States are not precluded from adopting and enforcing mining regulations provided they are at least as stringent as those developed by the Environmental Protection Agency. The Corps of Engineers is authorized to acquire lands which have been affected by surface

mining and not fully stabilized and to stabilize such lands, utilizing a special stabilization fund established for that purpose.

H.R. 1603

This bill provides for the cooperation between the Federal Government and the States with respect to environmental regulations for mining operations, for the prevention, control, and abatement of water pollution, and for other pur

poses.

Titles I, II, and III of the bill relate to regulation of mining operations.

The Secretary of the Interior would be authorized to review and approve State environmental regulations for mining operations that meet the criteria set out in the bill, and to impose Federal regulations if a State fails to submit satisfactory regulations within two years after enactment of the legislation. The Secretary could conduct research and grant States financial and other assistance in administering its regulations. Federal agencies could promulgate regulations governing mining on lands administered by them.

Title IV of the bill would amend Section 10 of the Federal Water Pollution Control Act. This proposed amendment is not directly or specifically related to mining or to reclamation of mined lands, and therefore its provisions are not summarized.

H.R. 2380

This bill provides for the regulation of strip coal mining, for the preservation, acquisition, and reclamation of strip coal mining areas, and for other purposes.

Administration of the Act proposed by this bill would be the responsibility of a Strip Mine Reclamation Commission of three members appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate. The Commission would provide for a nationwide program to reclaim lands and waters damaged by strip coal mining, including establishment of criteria and standards for the reclamation, conservation, and protection of future strip mine areas. It would have authority to prohibit strip mining where it would be impossible to reclaim the land, and to issue licenses for strip mining when the requirements of the Act and regulations have been met. A Strip Mining Reclamation Fund would be established for the acquisition and reclamation of unreclaimed strip mine areas. The bill prohibits mining of previously strip mined lands which have been reclaimed, and the leasing, or renewal of any existing leases, of any land owned by the Federal Government for strip mining.

H.R. 2861

This bill provides for cooperation between the Secretary of the Interior and the States with respect to the regulation of surface mining operations, and for other purposes.

This bill includes all surface mining, including auger mining. It directs the Secretary of the Interior to develop mandatory standards for surface mining operations, including reclamation of surface mined lands. It prohibits surface mining without a permit from the Secretary. He would have authority to acquire and reclaim lands affected by surface mining which have not been reclaimed, using a "Strip Mining Reclamation Fund" for that purpose. A "Strip Mining Advisory Commission" would be established to consult with and advise the Secretary with respect to the establishment of standards and regulations. On petition by a State, and upon a finding by the Secretary as to adequacy of the State law with respect to strip mining, the Secretary may delegate authority to the State to enforce provisions of the Act.

Mrs. MINK. Mr. Udall, any questions?

Mr. UDALL. Mr. Whitt, I understand that the Interior Department is the lead Agency on this legislation and that they sent you here on behalf of the Department of Agriculture to support their statement, and that your Department prefers the enactment of H.R. 4863. Mr. WHITT. Yes, sir.

Mr. UDALL What Department or Bureau of the Department of Agriculture owns lands on which there is now, or potentially could be, surface mining activity?

Mr. WHITT. Major land holdings, of course, Mr. Udall, are in the national forests, and to some extent, the national grasslands, some 187 million acres of land.

Mr. UDALL. Do you have any figures showing the extent in acreage or tons of production or any other measure, the extent of extraction of minerals from USDA lands at the present time?

Mr. WHITT. No, sir, I do not have the specific data with me; I would be glad to supply it for the record, if you wish.

Mrs. MINK. Without objection, you will supply that. We will insert it in the record at this point.

[The material referred to follows:]

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE,

FOREST SERVICE,

Washington, D.C., April 19, 1973.

Hon. JAMES A. HALEY,

Chairman, Committee on Interior

and Insular Affairs,

House of Representatives

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: The following information is in response to your request for data on acreages of National Forest System lands mined by surface methods.

The figures must be considered as informed estimates based on incomplete data gathered over a relatively brief time from our people on the ground and in our Regional Offices.

The data for acreages mined are substantially the same as a year ago since little National Forest land has been committed to surface mining in the interim.

The figures for acreages potentially minable by surface methods are tenuous. Mineral resources are hidden from view and must be found and by some means measured before even the determination as to method of mining can be made. The stratified deposits, of which good examples are coal and phosphates, best lend themselves to more nearly realistic predictions of their areal extent and the probable methods of production. Estimates for other kinds of mineral deposits are much more difficult to make and we must depend to a great extent on mineral production history, geologic potentialities, growths in demand, topographic and geographic environments, and related factors.

The stratified deposits are not only easier to estimate as to extent and probable mining method but, in terms of mining as a land use, they involve more land than any and probably all other minerals except sand and gravel. Individual operations producing the latter seldom approach the size of an open pit copper or coal strip mine but, in the aggregate, sand and gravel operations involve large areas of land throughout the country.

We attempted to determine the acreages involved in production of each mineral commodity. It proved impossible to do in a short time, although one of our Regions does have quite good information both by commodities and by States. A detailed inventory would be both time-consuming and expensive.

ACRES OF NATIONAL FOREST SYSTEM LANDS INVOLVED IN AND WITH POTENTIAL FOR MINING BY SURFACE METHODS, BY REGIONS