Mr. McCARTHY. I do not know. These investments run as much as a quarter to a half a million dollars. Mr. JOHNSON. They run very high, too, at Cape Cod. I think the Cape Cod proposition would be much more difficult as far as acquisition of property is concerned than this one. I am wondering if any of the existing dairy ranches were set aside to operate as a dairy ranch as long as the present ownership wanted to use them that way, could it be worked out whereby the National Park Service takes over the total area and administers and cares for it, and provides access, and all of the other obligations? Mr. McCARTHY. We would have to consider it, but the trouble is when you get to the end of your sentence. The first part I agree with, but the second part, when you say that they take over, it raises some questions. If you just took this part, or this part, and just got an agreement that the rest of the dairy stayed, if it could not be used for anything else, it could be worked out on that line, but when you move ahead and say that the Park Service will have control over them, that would be difficult to work out. Mr. JOHNSON. It is being worked out on another park facility known as Cape Cod, where we have more costly property than we have here. It would run into much more on balance than this. How much of the feed that these dairy ranches consume there and produce in milk products and dairy products is grown on that particujar area? Mr. MCCARTHY. I would like to ask Mr. Mendoza to answer that question as to how long they buy feed and how long they feed on this land. Mr. MENDOZA. In this area here I would like to explain why this general area is important for dairying, and why it will differ from another area. I know somebody will come up and tell you they corral feed stock in Los Angeles. I am very well acquainted with that, but there are different economic reasons why something which is economical to do in Los Angeles won't be economical to do in this area. The asset of this area, and the advantage economically for those dairies in this area, are the green pastures. To some people it is terrible and to others it helps them economically. We close our eyes to the fog and the rain and the cold, but it grows green grass out here, which is in the pasture. Four months out of the year our milk stock graze and get all of the feed from the pastures. The other 8 months of the year we feed them. But they have very Tittle milk. Two hundred cows, and they will have possibly 500 head of stock all told. That is young stock on the average. Sometimes we have a very bad year and we have to feed them a month or two in the wintertime, but on the average they will secure all of their feed from this area. If we were to be forced to use the comparison of corral feeding in this area, it has great disadvantages. We have a longer haul to bring in our feed and a costlier haul to take out our product. It is offset by the cheaper natural feed we have here. But if you force us to haul everything in and haul everything out, then we would definitely have to move closer to the market and to the feed. Of course, if we use the figures of the Park Service, the price of the land is $8 million. Then you can figure the acres at $150 an Mr. MCCARTHY. If they can be properly excluded that is fine, but the thing is, what do you mean by exclusion? Mr. JOHNSON. It has to be worked out. Mr. McCARTHY. Certainly. Mr. JOHNSON. You people say that no one talked to you. The National Park Service will be before this committee to present their views. Mr. McCARTHY. Certainly. Mr. JOHNSON. Certainly before this goes too much further the committee will look at the area before it will further consider legislation, I am sure, and there will be a very definite research into this particular facility before it is agreed to. Mr. MCCARTHY. În that regard, the dairy farmers will be very happy to have as many of you as possible view this area. We will be more than pleased. Mr. JOHNSON. There are not too many ownerships involved. I noticed that there are 62 ownerships on the entire 53,000 acres. Mr. MCCARTHY. That is correct, and in the dairy area it is considerably less than that. Mr. JOHNSON. That is all. Mr. RUTHERFORD. I would like to say this to all concerned, and particularly to the proponents or opponents who are here. You appear to be using the material as if you are debating in the local press. As far as I am concerned personally, and I think I can include most of the members of the subcommittee, if not all of them, we are not familiar with this area and we are not familiar with the newspaper press, or some of the arguments that possibly have been proposed on a local basis. Therefore we can view this thing objectively and fairly and, as far as I am concerned, have no preconceived conclusions as to the decision that this subcommittee will render. As to the suggestion made by Mr. McCarthy as to viewing the area, this is, as most of you know, the first year that this subcommittee has been organized. Previously the jurisdiction of this subcommittee was in the lady to my left here, the gentlelady from Idaho, under the Public Lands Subcommittee. It is the first year of the Subcommittee on National Parks. My attitude has been, and it has been so stated to the chairman of the full committee, Mr. Aspinall, of Colorado, that I do not propose to reach any conclusions as to this problem prior to the subcommittee chairman or the members of the subcommittee having an opportunity to view these areas, not directed to having a hearing, but as to a survey of the terrain, and to see the area which is in question. That is the purpose. When we will be able to do that, with relation to our own schedule and the schedule of the House, has not been determined, but we propose as soon as possible and as soon as it is convenient in accordance with the schedule of the committee and the House, that the subcommittee will take a trip and visit this area, and personally view the terrain and the area and the other matters concerned. I recognize the gentlelady from Idaho. Mrs. PrOST. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mendoza, how many acres do you have in your ranch? Mr. MENDOZA. I operate two dairies in the peninsula in different areas. One of them is 1,300 acres of pastureland and the other has 1,100 acres of pastureland. In our type of farming out there we do not raise any of our own hay or anything, and it requires large acreages. They sound like big farms but they are not actually as big as they sound. It takes more acres to run that kind of operation. Mr. RUTHERFORD. Will the gentlelady yield? Mrs. PFOST. Yes. Mr. RUTHERFORD. I explored this question this morning while the gentlelady was necessarily absent on another committee which was in session. This land use survey which just came from the printer on page 15 lists some of the present land ownerships with regard to the public use area that is proposed. Mrs. PrOST. Thank you very much. Mr. Mendoza, do you have two sets of buildings on the two ranches? Mr. MENDOZA. That is correct. Mrs. ProST. And you personally operate both ranches? Mr. MENDOZA. Yes. Mrs. Prost. When you say that there are only 4 months of the year when you are able to utilize the pastureland, does this mean that you actually have good pasture only 4 months out of the year, or is there just a given season when it is better? Mr. MENDOZA. It is a given season when it is better. That is restricted just to our milk stock cows. Our milk cows do graze the other part of the year, but there is not enough pasture and we have to supplement most of it with feed the rest of the year. But I want to explain, the young stock are on our place 12 months of the year. Mrs. PFOST. Twelve months of the year? Mr. MENDOZA. Yes. Mrs. PrOST. Pursuing the question that Mr. Johnson posed earlier, if the committee should exclude you from the park, in other words, not acquire your land at all but acquire a given area so that you were not restricted in any way and you could still own your land as you do today, would you still be opposed to the park? Mr. MENDOZA. No. We are not opposed to the park, but we are certainly opposed to the park as this bill is written to take all of the ranching area and farmland away from us. But we are not opposed to the park. Apparently there are willing sellers in that area. In the southern part of that proposed area. I think a lot of it is ideal for park purposes there. We will not go against the park, but we are certainly against taking our lands. We have traveled a long way here to come and voice our opinion. Mrs. ProST. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. RUTHERFORD. The gentleman from Alaska. Mr. RIVERS. No questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. RUTHERFORD. The gentleman from Pennsylvania. Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask these people who are in the ranching business and have gotten these farms out there, first, how many head of cattle do you have on your ranch? Mr. GROSSI. I have 500, approximately. Mr. SAYLOR. Of that 500, how much milk do you produce? Mr. SAYLOR. Do you milk twice a day? Mr. GROSSI. We don't milk the whole 500, though. We milk about 210 or 208 of them. Mr. SAYLOR. What do you do with the rest of them? Mr. GROSSI. They are too young to be milked yet. They are on pasture. Mr. SAYLOR. You have them out in pasture? Mr. GROSSI. Yes. Mr. SAYLOR. All right. Can you sell your milk in San Francisco? Mr. GROSSI. Yes, to Challenge. Mr. SAYLOR. Do you have any cooling tank or holding tank in your system? Mr. GROSSI. Right. Right up to the minute. We have bulk tanks, coolers, refrigeration, pipelines, if you are familiar with that. Mr. SAYLOR. Do you milk in stalls, or do you have a parlor for milking? Mr. GROSSI. We have stalls. Mr. SAYLOR. How much feed do you produce on this 2,400 acres, which I understand is what you have in your area? Mr. GROSSI. I have 1,175 acres. Mr. SAYLOR. You have 1,175? Mr. GROSSI. Right. Mr. SAYLOR. How much feed do you produce for your approximately 500 head of cattle? Mr. GROSSI. Off of the land? Mr. SAYLOR. That's right. Mr. GROSSI. That is a pretty hard question to answer. stated before As we Mr. SAYLOR. Do you raise all of the grass you feed to your cattle on that 1,175 acres? Mr. GROSSI. No, we have to buy some. Mr. SAYLOR. How much do you buy during the year? Mr. GROSSI. Oh, I would say about 1,000 tons of hay. Mr. SAYLOR. One thousand tons of hay? Mr. GROSSI. Yes. Mr. GROSSI. Yes. Mr. SAYLOR. How much grain do you feed during a year, I mean, roughly? Mr. GROSSI. Yes, let me see. I would say maybe about 300 tons of concentrate a year. Mr. SAYLOR. You buy that from suppliers that are located where? Mr. GROSSI. Petaluma, about 30 miles away. Mr. SAYLOR. Up the coast? Mr. GROSSI. Right. Mr. MENDOZA. Inland. Mr. GROSSI. Inland. Mr. SAYLOR. What kind of cattle do you have? Mr. GROSSI. I have Holsteins and Jerseys. Mr. SAYLOR. What is the average butter fat content you get paid for in your territory? Mr. GROSSI. I think I'll have to have Mr. Mendoza answer that question. Mr. MENDOZA. He wants to know the average butter of your milk. Mr. GROSSI. Of the cow? Mr. MENDOZA. Of the herd. Mr. GROSSI. It is about 460 pounds per cow. Mr. MENDOZA. That is your average fat. It has to be so much. Mr. SAYLOR. I realize that. If you didn't you would not be in busi ness long, even in San Francisco. Mr. MENDOZA. The average fat content is around 4 percent, isn't it? Mr. SAYLOR. The butterfat is about 4 percent. Mr. GROSSI. It is about 4. Mr. SAYLOR. You said your brother has about 1,300 acres? Mr. GROSSI. Me? Mr. SAYLOR. Yes. Mr. GROSSI. No, he has about 500, just like I do. Mr. MENDOZA. No, acres. Get your good ear up here. Mr. GROSSI. I have the wrong ear. Mr. SAYLOR. I am trying to remember what you said. Mr. GROSSI. He has 1,200. Domingo Grossi. D. Grossi you are speaking of. He has 1,200 acres and he borders me-right next to me. That's my brother. Mr. SAYLOR. How many cattle does he have? Mr. GROSSI. Approximately 500, like I do. Mr. SAYLOR. And milks about the same number? Mr. GROSSI. About the same number. Mr. SAYLOR. And percentagewise he has to buy hay in the same amount? Mr. GROSSI. Right. Mr. SAYLOR. He has to buy all of his feed? Mr. GROSSI. It is identically the same kind of operation. Mr. SAYLOR. The same kind of operation. I think one of you said it was your brother-in-law who has about 300 acres? Mr. GROSSI. Dave Rogers. Mr. SAYLOR. Mr. Rogers. Does he have a dairying operation? Mr. GROSSI. Exactly the same thing. Mr. SAYLOR. How many head of cattle does he have? Mr. GROSSI. I'm not too sure, but it is a smaller operation. I don't know. He milks about 150 cows, or something like that. Mr. SAYLOR. All right, sir. Mr. Mendoza, can you tell us about your operation, the operation conducted either separately by you or, as I gather it, you rent from your mother? Mr. MENDOZA. That is correct. Mr. SAYLOR. Or in partnership? Mr. MENDOZA. Partnership. Mr. SAYLOR. And you have a brother? Mr. MENDOZA. I have a sister. Mr. SAYLOR. A sister that has the same kind of operation? Mr. MENDOZA. That is correct. Right out on the end of that peninsula in the dark green. We have two operations there, and I have another dairy operation farther inland in the proposed area here. also. The two we have on the end of the point we milk on the average an average of about 220 to 250 milk cows, depending on the time of the year, and so forth, on each one of these ranches. On the other |