Mr. THOMSON. I will certainly be supporting any measure that will reach that objective.

Mr. ICHORD. Thank you.

Mr. ASPINALL. If my colleague from Missouri will yield, we don't have jurisdiction over the Aspinall bill.

Mr. ICHORD. I understand that, Mr. Chairman. That is in the Ways and Means Committee. I hope they have the same understanding of the lead problem as does this committee.

Mr. EDMONDSON. The gentleman from New Mexico.

Mr. MORRIS. Many of us on this committee have had that same hope for the last 2 years. Just a hope, but we are still hoping. Mr. EDMONDSON. Åre there further questions of the witness?

I thank the distinguished former Governor for his appearance before us and look forward to working with him in the Congress. Mr. THOMSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. EDMONDSON. We have another distinguished colleague, one who is sponsor of legislation now before the committee. I would like to welcome before the committee the Honorable Walter McVey of Kansas.

STATEMENT OF HON. WALTER L. McVEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF KANSAS

Mr. MCVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Gentlemen, I might state my district is in the southeastern part of Kansas and adjoins the district of Mr. Edmondson in Oklahoma, who is directly to the south. We have what is known as the tristate area there, which is comprised of a field covering parts of Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri. I think that the previous speakers pretty well covered the field.

However, I would like to say that I consider this type of legislation purely an emergency stopgap or temporary measure. It kind of reminds me of the time I went to the doctor and I had the itch on a portion of my body, and he kept seeking the ultimate cause, but he did not give me anything for relief, and finally I gave up and went to my druggist and he gave me a salve that gave me the temporary relief that I needed at that time.

Specifically, Cherokee County, Kans., is the county in my district that has had the production of lead and zinc. Today Cherokee County, Kans., I am informed, has the largest welfare load of any county in the State of Kansas. Additionally, we in southeastern Kansas, in my congressional district, have lost 15,000 population in the last 10 years.

Now, that all has not been due to the decline in the lead and zinc industry certainly, but it is a factor which has contributed to the decline in our economy in that area.

There have been various estimates made about the amount of recoverable ore in my area, and I can say that Mr. Kiser, who is going to testify, informs me that he has figures that would indicate there are at least 1,800,000 tons of metal which are recoverable. I would like to point out also for the benefit of the committee that we are talking about reopening mines which are ready to be put into pro

duction. These are not flooded mines. These mines have be drained and they are ready to put into production.

Frankly, gentlemen, in my past experience in the practice of la I have found that in matters such as mining there are differences divergencies of interest, and I think that is true in the present ca where we have the large miners who apparently have large foreig investments which they wish to protect, and they would not be in terested in coming into my area, particularly, and trying to recove this recoverable ore. But on the other hand there are many ind pendents or small miners who would welcome the opportunity to g in there and try to mine that ore.

I think also we all realize we must be practical in looking a this legislation. From my own standpoint I feel that the State De partment and many of these one-world proponents are in the saddl and they are going to continue to ride in the saddle for years to com Frankly, I might add an opinion that ultimately they are going t result in bringing down our economy and our way of living to tha of underdeveloped countries rather than raising the standards o living in underdeveloped countries.

I think it is necessary that we have immediate temporary legisla tion such as this in order to get these mines back into operation i some measure, and to give a stimulus to the economy. We talk i the local communities about spending money to bring an industr into the area, and I ask what is wrong with spending money to rebuil an industry that we already have, or have had.

I believe, gentlemen, that covers the subject as far as I am con cerned.

Mr. EDMONDSON. I thank the gentleman.

Mr. ASPINALL. You did not mean to imply, Mr. McVey, that all o the people who might be termed large operators or big industry neces sarily have large operations in foreign areas?

Mr. MCVEY. No, not at all, Mr. Aspinall, and I am sorry if I gav that impression.

Mr. ASPINALL. There are some of the large operators, fairly large who employ a lot of men at the present, who are having difficulty in maintaining their operations, who will reap no benefits whatsoeve from this legislation.

Mr. MCVEY. Yes, that is correct, sir.

Mr. ASPINALL. In fact, they might be embarrassed just a little bit by it because of the added production of lead and zinc which is not coming in at the present time, but would come in because of the opera tions under the provisions of the bill.

Mr. MCVEY. I might say also, Mr. Chairman, that I feel, as I an sure do many members of the committee, that marketing quotas wil work, but they will have to be closely policed and I think also that program could be used in conjunction with this temporary program to stabilize the small lead and zinc mining industry.

Mr. ASPINALL. What you are saying is that just because quota have not worked of late years is not necessarily proof that they wil not work if the present quota system were administered for the benefi of the industry which was supposed to be helped by it. Is that not right?

Mr. McVEY. That is correct, sir.

Mr. EDMONDSON. The gentleman from Iowa.

Mr. KYL. Mr. Chairman, I have one question.

You say this is an emergency or stopgap relief program?

Mr. McVEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KYL. What do you contemplate is the situation which will terminate the emergency?

Mr. McVEY. I would think, for instance, the quota system; that is more rigid enforcement of the quotas, Mr. Kyl. That would be something.

Perhaps we could look at tariffs. That is another measure. I don't think this would interfere with any other action we take in that direction; but from what I have learned from you members who are more experienced than I, this particular measure looks like the thing that is most likely to pass the Congress at the present time. Mr. ASPINALL. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. KYL. Yes, I yield.

Mr. ASPINALL. Immediately?

Mr. McVEY. Immediately.

Mr. ASPINALL. Or in the very near future?

Mr. McVEY. Immediately.

Mr. KYL. Did I not understand the gentleman to say that he had no faith in getting corrective measures in the formation of tariffs or trade restrictions in view of the obvious philosophy which tends in the opposite direction at the present time.

Mr. McVEY. I don't think we have so much of a chance of getting that at this time.

Mr. KYL. In other words, this would be another emergency measure of interminable length; is that correct?

Mr. ASPINALL. Five years.

Mr. McVey. I don't know that it would be interminable, Mr. Kyl, but I do think this is an emergency measure and I think we all realize the pressure of the State Department upon the legislative process here in Washington.

Mr. KYL. I would agree with the gentleman, we have a patient who is sick, is very sick, and something should be done about it.

But I have not been one who thinks that the salve which stopped the itch is the thing that is going to solve the problem.

Mr. McVEY. I don't represent that it does either, Mr. Kyl, but I do think we need some relief. That is the first thing we hope to getrelief.

Mr. EDMONDSON. The gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Chenoweth. Mr. CHENOWETH. I commend the gentleman on his splendid statement and his zeal to promote the lead and zinc industry in his district. I would like to inquire how many mines would open up if we pass legislation of this type. What would be the increase in lead and zine production in your area?

Mr. McVEY. With your permission, Mr. Chenoweth, I would like to refer that question to Mr. Kiser, who is an expert witness from that area.

Mr. CHENOWETH. Could you give us some approximate figures? Mr. McVEY. I don't know and I think it would benefit the State of Oklahoma more than it would Kansas, to be frank.

Mr. CHENOWETH. But it would help your area?

Mr. MCVEY. It would help my district and help our area.

Mr. CHENOWETH. I would like to inquire relative to your coal sit ation. You also have coal mines in your district?

Mr. MCVEY. Yes.

Mr. CHENOWETH. What is that situation at the present time?
Mr. McVEY. The coal mines are closed at this time.

Mr. CHENOWETH. Are some coal mines still in operation?
Mr. McVEY. There are a few coal mines in operation; yes.
Mr. CHENOWETH. The strip mines?

Mr. McVEY. They are strip mines. There possibly are some Cherokee County, I am referring to, but more up in Labette Count and also in Crawford County in Kansas, which are right next Cherokee County.

Mr. CHENOWETH. What has happened to the coal miners in you area?

Mr. MCVEY. Many are out of work, unemployed, and on the welfa roles.

Mr. CHENOWETH. Have they left that area?

Mr. McVEY. Perhaps more of that group have remained in the area and are on welfare than in other areas where people are able get out and go somewhere else.

Mr. CHENOWETH. As I understand the situation there are not many idle coal miners as other miners.

Mr. McVEY. I don't know. I couldn't say.

Mr. CHENOWETH. But there is suffering in both industries an they need relief?

Mr. MOVEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHENOWETH. That is all. Thank you very much.

Mr. EDMONDSON. Are there other questions on my left? I wa to thank my distinguished colleague for his appearance before t committee and fine statement you have made.

Mr. McVEY. Thank you.

Mr. ASPINALL. On the question of how the large producers stan with regard to the bill which has been raised several times, I woul like to ask permission to make a part of the record at this point le ters addressed to me by the principal officers of the major produce in the tristate district, the American Zinc Lead and Smelting Corp a letter from Howard I. Young, dated March 4, 1961, and the Eag Picher Co. letter from Mr. C. O. Dale, the vice-president, date March 6, 1961, both letters stating their support and approval of the bill.

I would like to make it clear that both of these gentlemen who hav talked to me at some length have made it clear that they do not re gard this as a final answer or a long-range answer to the problem of the domestic lead and zinc industry and both of them favor th long-range approaches, but both of them have made it clear in thei letters that they feel the bill now being heard by the committee woul be a desirable step to take at this time.

If there is no objection, I would like to have the letters made a par of the record.

Hearing no objection, it is so ordered.

(The letters referred to follow :)

Hon. ED EDMONDSON,

AMERICAN ZINC, LEAD & SMELTING Co.,
St. Louis, Mo., March 4, 1961.

Chairman, Subcommittee on Mines and Mining,
Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs,
House of Representatives, Washington, D.C.

DEAR CONGRESSMAN EDMONDSON: I wish to strongly endorse in principle H.R. No. 84 pertaining to the stabilization of lead and zinc mining by small domestic producers.

I fully appreciate that a number of people envision the bill as a subsidy. As a matter of fact, in my opinion it is not a subsidy, but should be considered a measure promoting the conservation and development of a part of the natural resources of our country. The small producer is absolutely necessary to our continued development, but he cannot continue to exist under present unprotected economic conditions such as exist in the zinc and lead industries. I strongly urge adoption of suitable legislation. Very truly yours,

Hon. ED EDMONDSON,

House Office Building, Washington, D.C.

HOWARD I. YOUNG.

THE EAGLE-PICHER CO., Miami, Okla., March 6, 1961.

DEAR ED: Thank you for your letter of March 1.

You asked about our feelings on your small producer's bill. The Eagle-Picher Co. is very much interested in this bill, and although it would not greatly affect the company in one way or another, we would very much like to see its passage. Many of the mines in this area are deteriorating rapidly. We have tried to keep most of our own mines in some kind of shape for future operation, but many of the mines formerly operated by the small producers in the area are getting in pretty bad shape.

With the aid of the small producer's bill, the small miners would again be able to get their mines in shape and pump some of the water out of the district. This, of course, would help the whole mining field and help preserve the lower grade reserves of the district for future mining either by us or by others. It would also allow activity which would keep many of the experienced miners in the area, and it would give the whole mining field as well as the communities in the area a shot in the arm and a new hope for the future.

The passage of the small producer's bill would, I am sure, make possible the mining of sufficient ore for us to operate the central mill. This would help us to keep a nucleus of our old crew together as well as keep the mill from further deterioration. All in all we are definitely in favor of your small producer's bill; however, I know you realize that it is not the answer to the problems of the large domestic producers such as ourselves. We can only hope and work for additional legislation that will allow us to continue in the mining business.

I am enclosing herewith a copy of a letter I have written to Clark Wilson concerning the Aspinall bill. This bill, with certain changes as outlined in my letter to Mr. Wilson, would certainly help the large domestic producer as well as the small producers, and I believe would be a better overall solution to our lead and zinc problems.

From discussions with Tom Kiser I know you are trying to push your small producer's bill along as fast as possible and in preference to any other approach. However, I hope, and I am confident, that you will throw your support to the Aspinall bill (with indicated changes) when the timing is right.

We certainly appreciate your diligent and tireless efforts in trying to improve the deplorable state of our mining industry.

With best personal regards.

Sincerely yours,

C. O. DALE,