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As I said earlier, we were horrified at that and waited to see if there were other information. Later on, Laura McQuaig from Witness for Peace came in and she said that she had been on the scene half an hour later and had spoken with eyewitnesses. And that is where it came in about the grenade.

They said that Ben had fallen with the first grenade. That sounded to us different. And, so, we included that in our report. Apparently, the same day, although it was date-marked the following day, Miguel D'Escoto put out the report that Mr. Dornan mentions that Ben had been kidnaped and then executed.

The day after he put that out, he retracted the part about being kidnaped. So, that was-and basically said, "The information I had received originally was not adequate.

What I mention is that there is evidence that Ben was probably, in some form, taken alive. Whether he was taken away? Left there? But he was alive and then executed.

The part about-that he had been killed in his office. According to members of the Witness for Peace staff in Managua, that apparently originated from someone who was visiting from Washington, from the State of Washington, who took that back. It would be very easy to misinterpret when a statement came out that he was killed while doing his work, I mean in Spanish, you would just say that he was at work. Right? And it would be very easy for someone from up here to say he was at his office because that is where most of us work.

That is pure supposition on my part, but I imagine that is where it came from.

I think that in moments like that, it is very hard in the first moments, because there is a lot of confusion. There is very little communication. You are waiting and you are talking with this one who comes in now and that one who comes in later. And it takes a while to get the full story out.

When we saw Ben's body, it was obvious that he had not been killed by a grenade because there was a bullet hole in the side of his head and it had powder burns around it, this size.

Mr. SOLARZ. And you saw that yourself?

Ms. RISACHER. I saw that myself.

Mr. SOLARZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CROCKETT. Mr. AuCoin.

Mr. AUCOIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you in particular because you have extended me the kindness of sitting in on your committee today. I am not a member of this committee, but I am or was the Member of Congress who represented Benjamin Linder. He was a constituent of mine. And I have an intense interest not only in the circumstances of Benjamin Linder's death, but also what it means in terms of what it reflects in U.S. foreign policy. And I might say to my friend from Florida, whose questions, I must say, I found abusive of my constituents, that I want to compliment the parents of Benjamin Linder and I want to ask them this question, particularly because of the nature of the questions the gentleman from Florida-the Representative from Florida-posed.

The Representative from Florida said, Dr. Linder, that you are using your grief to politicize this issue. Is it not the case that the committee, this committee, invited you here today to testify?.

Dr. LINDER. Yes, it is.

Mr. AUCOIN. And why did you agree to accept the committee's invitation? You did not force yourself on this committee, you were invited to come.

Dr. LINDER. I wanted to lay out the facts as best I knew. I did not go down to Nicaragua to snoop, to come up with a report, although just in passing, we knew things that the United States Government did not know, it seemed to me.

Mr. AUCOIN. I think it is important, Mr. Chairman, that the record be clear that the Linders at the time of their grief have traveled across the country to testify about the loss of their son.

This war came home to the State of Oregon, to the City of Portland, to my constituents, and I would submit to this committee and for this record that if we are not careful, if we allow this policy to go forward, there will be other Members of Congress like myself who will find themselves facing situations like this, perhaps with armed U.S. combatants as casualties and fatalities. And I think this is a moment in which Members of Congress ought to pause and reflect in terms of what our policy is actually achieving.

I have read in Mr. Abrams testimony, today, that he will deliver later and I find it amazing that he indicates that what our Embassy did on the morning of April 29 in order to try to find out what happened to Benjamin, who killed him, was to get in touch with the Nicaragua Foreign Ministry.

It was not the Defense Ministry of Nicaragua, which killed your son. It was the contras. I would and will submit to Mr. Abrams, when he arrives that it would have been far easier to have talked to the people in whose hands American funds put weapons to find out what the circumstances of your son's death were. I am wondering if you might not agree with that.

Dr. LINDER. It sounds good.

Mr. AUCOIN. Mr. Dornan spoke of not getting straight answers out of the Sandinista Government, I have been to Nicaragua, as well. I am I must say to the gentleman from California-no great fan of the Sandinistas.

Mr. DORNAN. I know that.

Mr. AUCOIN. And I do not find complete candor every time I ask a question, either of the Sandinista government-I must say to the gentleman and for the record and that is I find, as the member of Congress who used to represent Benjamin Linder, some degree of discomfort in the lack of straight answers I am getting from the American Government, from the U.S. State Department, when I have asked about the circumstances of Benjamin Linder's death. Mr. DORNAN. Would the gentleman

Mr. AUCOIN. I will yield in a minute. I will yield in a minute. In a closed hearing of the Defense Appropriations Committee, a committee that I am a member of, I put several questions to our intelligence agencies relating to all of these facts. This was someat least 24, if not 36 hours after the death. There were no answers to be had.

I asked-well, I cannot get into what I asked in a closed hearing. But I am amazed, talking again about the absence of straight answers from governments, I am amazed that after several days, the best our intelligence agencies could do was to provide me a single page document, a single page document, four paragraphs long, marked "Secret" which regurgitated the accounts, fragile and fragmentary and general as they were from the contra commander. And that is the best they could do.

I do not find that in any way straight answers from our own government.

Mr. DORNAN. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. AUCOIN. I will in just a moment. Just today I got a second Secret document from the State Department. It is a two paged document. What it now says is that we have two contra commanders who are claiming responsibility for the death of Benjamin Linder and I think the questions that Mr. Abrams is going to have to answer is: Number one why it is that American journalists can go to the scene of such an incident and ascertain facts that this Member of Congress can read in the Washington Post, when our own Embassy cannot provide people on the scene to get the facts that I think our Government ought to be able to provide for the members of Congress, in addition to the American public.

I think the other question Mr. Abrams should answer is why it is civilian targets are being targeted in Nicaragua. I think we understand that orders of battle are communicated from the United States Government to the contras. Why is it that civilian targets where the greatest chance of the Benjamin Linders of the world being killed are the ones that are being targeted?

Why are we not instead insisting, since we are providing the money for the guns and the weapons, that military targets be the targets if that is-if this war, in any case, is in the security interest of the United States. That is not happening. Why are we not imposing that kind of stipulation? I think those are tough questions that Mr. Abrams ought to answer.

I will yield to the gentleman from California.

Mr. DORNAN. The only observation I was going to make that, in all my experience on several continents, I have found that the State Department people are not the most reliable source to go for information in violent situations.

Mr. AUCOIN. Well, my questions were addressed to the Ameri

can

Mr. DORNAN. And reporters are. Most reporters-not many, walk in where angels fear to tread and the Los Angeles Times was there one day after it happened, within a day, speaking to eyewitnesses who were shot at who survived the event and they completely discredit everything that took place from the next day on, including all government reports and the autopsy.

Mr. AUCOIN. Mr. Dornan, the questions are the agency to which I put my questions was the Central Intelligence Agency, which is, as you know, deeply involved in the training and supposedly in the indoctrination of human rights values of the contras in Nicaragua. And it was that agency that provided, about two days later, if I am not mistaken, this one page▬▬

Mr. DORNAN. If I may continue the colloquy. They do not have anybody in the field-

Mr. CROCKETT. One minute.

Mr. DORNAN. It is a 30-days' march to get in there. We have eye witnesses talking to the Los Angeles Times.

Mr. CROCKETT. One minute, Mr. Dornan. I am afraid, gentlemen, the time of each of you has expired.

Mr. AUCOIN. You were very indulgent.

Mr. CROCKETT. I want to express the appreciation of our subcommittee to Dr. and Mrs. Linder and to Ms. Risacher for coming all the way across the country, at your own expense, incidentally, in order to give us the benefit of your thinking in this situation.

I want to again express our deep sadness with you over what has happened. I did not take advantage of my five minutes, so, I do want to indicate a concern that I have with respect to volunteers going down to Nicaragua and the lack of support I understand that they receive from our government.

We have a long summer coming up and true to American ideals, I anticipate there will be a large number of college volunteers going down to Nicaragua this summer. The question presents itself: To what extent can they expect to be represented and protected in Nicaragua in peaceful endeavors by our State Department. And that was one of the basic reasons for this hearing here today.

My recollection goes back to the summer of 1964. And I see a direct parallel with volunteers going into the State of Mississippi. I also went to the State of Mississippi. I also was a part of those who were concerned about the three Civil Rights youngsters who were killed. I was perhaps the lawyer who last spoke with them. So, I know what happens when you go into a hostile environment when you have ever reason to expect the protection of your government and it is not forthcoming.

It is the determination of this committee to do its utmost to make sure that Americans who go down to Nicaragua will be protected by their government. Thank you.

Ms. RISACHER. Thank you, Mr. Crockett.

Mr. CROCKETT. Our next panel-it is really not a panel.

Mr. AUCOIN. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CROCKETT. Yes.

Mr. AUCOIN. Inasmuch as one of the questions for the witnesses was to state their opinion and characterize the Government in Nicaragua, I wonder if for the record we might also ask them to characterize or perhaps have the gentleman who asked the question characterize the nature of the Government of South Africa, South Korea, Taiwan-

Mr. DORNAN. Afghanistan, Angola-

Mr. CROCKETT. One minute. One minute. I think you have carried this far enough. Let us proceed with the next panel.

Mr. DORNAN. And Chile.

Mr. AUCOIN. Let us ask for a human rights report.

Mr. CROCKETT. We will recess until after this vote. [Recess.]

PANEL TWO

Mr. CROCKETT. The subcommittee will be in order.

Our next witness is the Assistant Secretary of State for InterAmerican Affairs, Mr. Elliott Abrams. Welcome, Mr. Abrams. Will you stand and be sworn.

Mr. ABRAMS. If you would like.

Mr. LAGOMARSINO. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CROCKETT. Yes, Mr. Lagomarsino.

Mr. LAGOMARSINO. Is it the intention of the Chair to swear the rest of the witnesses?

Mr. CROCKETT. I am not sure. But it is my intention to swear Mr. Abrams.

Mr. LAGOMARSINO. Mr. Chairman, I certainly have no objection to that. I am sure Mr. Abrams does not either. But I will insist that all the witnesses be sworn, then.

Mr. CROCKETT. I am sure that Mr. Abrams has no objection.
Will you stand, Mr. Abrams. Raise your right hand.

Mr. LAGOMARSINO. There is usually a Bible, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CROCKETT. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. ABRAMS. I do.

Mr. CROCKETT. Very well. Now, we have asked each witness, Mr. Abrams to limit his prepared statement to 10 minutes. His entire statement will, of course, be included in the record. I hope that you will be able to make your prepared presentation within 10 minutes. If you cannot, then we will consider allowing some extra time. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF HON. ELLIOTT ABRAMS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INTER-AMERICAN AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN ADAMS, DIRECTOR, U.S. CITIZEN'S EMERGENCY CENTER, BUREAU OF CONSULAR AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Mr. ABRAMS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have to begin by saying that, as you know, I have been waiting to testify since about 2:30 and I am going to have to depart at 5. So, I am going to try to be as brief as possible in the opening statement rather than read the entire statement. I will try to skip through it.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss with you the circumstances as we know them of the tragic death of U.S. citizen, Benjamin Ernest Linder. I must stress that the Department of State has little confirmed information about Mr. Linder's death. Our attempts to investigate continue to be hampered by the Government of Nicaragua.

We do know that Mr. Linder was killed April 28 in Jinotega Department in Northern Nicaragua and our Embassy in Managua first learned of Mr. Linder's death when Embassy officers heard on the radio on April 28 that "An American cooperative worker had been killed by contra forces at about 7 a.m. that morning."

Now, as you know, there have been a number of conflicting accounts of Mr. Linder's death, including reports of a letter from Foreign Minister D'Escoto to the Secretary of State. One press account

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