Mr. DE KEYSER. In my opinion, I would like to say that I like to definitely see the boys become pages at the age of 17 and 18 for the experience that they could get before college, as, shall we say, tryout period, before embarking upon a more intense course in political science and government and even if they are not going into political science and government.

We have had boys in the professions ranging from veterinarians, doctors, lawyers, and there are about 23 professions represented by our alumni. I feel that in our democratic way of life the fact that they have had the opportunity of observing their Government in action, even though they had not been political science majors, has been invaluable to them, and an experience which they will carry with them the rest of their lives. And I would not like to see boys denied that privilege of seeing their Government in action. Therefore, I would favor, educationally, for that experience, seeing them in more mature years.

Mrs. GREEN. Going to the educational field, James B. Conant, in the American High School Today, said this:

The enrollment of many American public high schools is too small to allow a diversified curriculum, except at exorbitant expense. The prevalence of such high schools, those with graduating classes of less than a hundred students, constitutes one of the serious obstacles to good secondary education throughout most of the United States. Unless a graduating class contains at least a hundred students, classes in advanced subjects in separate sections within all classes becomes impossible, except with extravagantly high cost.

Would you want to comment on that?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, the cost for running our school for 1 year is approximately $77,000. Sixty-five percent of our classes are under 15 people in size. We have seven classes that have three people in them. We do not consider that that is a drawback. Quite to the contrary, we think that it is a great advantage, because it allows the individual attention that is impossible in larger classroom situations.

I think from the observations of the subcommittee yesterday, the individual instruction that the people were receiving in the classes cannot be matched in any school in the country that I know of, unless it is a private school that specializes in classes of that size.

Mrs. GREEN. You have how many students, now?

Mr. DE KEYSER. We have 68 at the present time.

Mrs. GREEN. This means it costs a little bit more than a thousand dollars per student per year?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Approximately, yes.

Mrs. GREEN. And the average cost in the schools in the District of Columbia, for which the Federal Government is also responsible, is $466.56 per student, just for operating expenses. In neither case are we talking about capital outlay. Then would you agree with Dr. Conant that high schools of less than a hundred students cannot be run except with extravagantly high costs or with exorbitant expense, as I think he referred to it? Would you say that this is a true statement? Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes; I would agree that that statement is correct, but at the same time, I would emphasize that it is a most desirable situation, if it is possible.

Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Gibbons, do you have questions?

Mr. GIBBONS. May I, because I have to go to another committee meeting to help them get a quorum, Madam Chairman?

Have you looked over the study that the Senate had on a residence for Capitol pages which was apparently conducted last year? Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. GIBBONS. You have seen that plan? I notice that they figure that, by charging the pages approximately $100 a month, they could get them not only to pay for keeping, cleaning, heating, cooling, and supplying the whole school building, but also for the dormitory, the recreation areas such as the gymnasium, and other things. In this way they would be paying or amortizing the building. They could get it for about a hundred a month per page.

And if you take out the amortization of the building and take out what is now being paid for the school, they could own a nice dormitory building for less than $50 a month and have a school in it and have a gymnasium in it and a cafeteria in it and which would put them about the place that most of them are paying now for rent. Don't you think it is a pretty sound idea, this proposal I mean?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Indeed I do. From a financial point of view, I think perhaps the boys will be money ahead at a hundred a month because I am sure that the rent on rooms ranges from $40 to $50 a month, and that is exclusive of meals.

Mr. GIBBONS. I don't believe their figure included meals, but the way I see their figures they had the boys paying in that hundred a month for the building, including the classrooms and the gymnasium and everything else. In other words, it was more than just a room they were paying for and also cleaning and air conditioning and paying all the utilities, too, which covers a lot of things that normally they would not be paying in the rent that they now pay.

One of the considerations is, I guess, when we talk about rent today, and probably we ought to put it in the record, that you would need a school site near the Capitol Building, wouldn't you?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, it should be very handy to the Capitol because these youngsters have to get up very early in the morning. They are out late in the evening, especially during late sessions, so it should be in the most convenient location to their work.

Mr. GIBBONS. I was impressed with your school yesterday, sir. I think you are doing a fine job over there and the enthusiasm of the instructors is fine. I want to compliment you on the nice job you are doing there.

Mr. DE KEYSER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. GIBBONS. I realize that you are sort of handicapped with having to work with boys who are not under close supervision.

Let me say, Madam Chairman, I have three boys, all of whom would like to become pages, and I would hate to turn them loose, as well trained as I think they are, with $320 a month and unsupervised. I would hate to do this in any town, not just Washington, but in any town. And I just think it is unwise and I think the Congress ought to move very rapidly in providing a facility for these boys. I think we are very lucky that the good Lord has been looking after us, as we haven't had some real trouble.

Mrs. GREEN. May I join my friend from Florida. I myself, have two sons. I guess it is the maternal instinct coming out. I would have been terribly worried if either son at 14 had been suddenly transported to Washington, D.C., with $320 a month in his pocket. In fact, I would be worried about my son in college being away with $320 ́in his pocket.

Congressman Griffin?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to begin by commending the chairman for going into this matter. Frankly, it has been from a purely academic point of view because I don't know what patronage is, being in the minority party, and

Mr. GIBBONS. If the gentleman will yield, I don't know, either, so don't feel hurt.

Mrs. GREEN. May I say to the gentleman from Michigan that we hope we will be able to keep him innocent all of his time here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It may very well be true, but it has always seemed incredible to me that this situation could continue. Let me ask this. To whom are you responsible in the operation of this school? Who is running it? Is there a committee or something? I notice the bill purports to set up a commission, made up of Members of the Senate, Members of the House, and somebody appointed by the Supreme Court. Is there such a committee like that, now, that is running it?

Mr. DE KEYSER. The school is considered one of the senior high schools of the District of Columbia. We are staffed through the Board of Education of the District of Columbia and work under the administration of the Administration building, so we are directly responsible to them for school matters and to the best of my knowledge we have no responsibility for the pages whatsoever once they leave our jurisdiction at 10:30 in the morning, until we see them at 6:30 the following morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And as far as the Congress or the Supreme Court is concerned, they have no direct relationship with your school organization whatever, then?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Not at all. Except that the sponsor himself is responsible for the outside activities of his particular page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many teachers do you have over there? And I am awfully sorry I didn't get up at 6:30.

Mr. DE KEYSER. We have a staff of six.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Six?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If the boys are grouped from the 11th and 12th grade, in ages and categories, this would help a little bit in the teaching, I imagine, would it not, so that you would not have such a wide spread of requirements?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, it would, especially in view of

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are trying to deal with a small number and if you didn't have them in such a wide range of age groups and grades, it would be a little easier, I would imagine.

Mr. DE KEYSER. I believe it would, in this respect. We are the only high school in the District of Columbia that includes the ninth grade as part of the senior high school. Most of them cut off the junior high school system, cut off the 7th, 8th, and 9th grades, and offer only the 10th, 11th, and 12th grades in the senior high school building. So ac

tually, we are taking into the senior high school the ninth grade from the junior high school plan where it does belong. It would, indeed, make for a greater variety of courses in the 11th and 12th grades than we can offer at the present time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And my reaction to some of the chairman's questioning a little earlier, for what it might be worth, is that as long as we want these boys, we want the services of the pages for the House and the Senate while they are in session and they have to be there whenever we go into session, and it may be at 12 o'clock some days and it may be at 10 o'clock on other days, I think we almost have to have a special school for them.

And when you do have special school facilities obviously it is going to be at a higher cost than it would be to conduct an ordinary school. I wonder if the college situation would be applicable from this point of view, also. If you are running an elevator, they have certain hours that they can depend on that they are supposed to be there, I guess. I don't know. There again, this is an academic matter as far as I am concerned, but these boys have to be available whenever the House is going to be in session so that it would be difficult, perhaps, for their jobs to fit into taking college work locally. This would be a little bit harder than it would be in a situation where they were running an elevator, I would imagine.

Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. With regard to the doorkeepers, they do take college

courses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean they just miss their classes or do they miss the sessions?

Mrs. GREEN. No, they make arrangements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. GREEN. A lot of the doorkeepers have earned degrees. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I would be inclined to agree that it might be well to restrict it to the 11th and 12th grades, myself, but obviously I haven't given it a lot of study. But I would say this that there are probably a lot of changes that ought to be made.

I can think of quite a few and I won't even ask some of the questions that might be embarrassing. But the first thing we ought to do, surely, is to provide some place for these boys to live and to give them the supervision that they need and let's do that first. And then after that, I will ask whether or not any of them are colored and things like that.

But I will go along and get you some support from this side, if we move, and I even question whether we ought to try to put the bill in along with the National Defense Education Act in some of the amendments and so forth. Maybe some of those are controversial. I don't know but let me pledge my support if we do something. Mrs. GREEN. Congressman Sickles?

Mr. SICKLES. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Before I start I want to also echo the sentiments that were expressed this morning because it was just surprising to me. I think that everybody assumes that there is some sort of supervision of the pages at all times. I think that is the public's belief in respect to this. Would you say that the parents of the individual pages, particularly those who

might live some distance from Washington, are aware of the fact that their youngster is sort of in business for himself and is completely

Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, indeed, they are informed both by the sponsor and by the school when they write preliminary letters of inquiry concerning living conditions. So I think they are well aware that there are no dormitory facilities available, and no supervision.

Mr. SICKLES. You mean you actually write them a letter and say that there is no supervision?

Mr. DE KEYSER. When the appointment is made, and the inquiriesI usually receive inquiries from parents concerning living conditions, dormitory facilities, and so on-come in, they are sent a letter telling them of the fact that there are no dormitory factilities available and that there will be no supervision on the outside.

I am sure the sponsors also make that clear to them at the time of appointment.

Mr. SICKLES. I just want to make sure that, for the record, it is clearly_understood that nobody is in charge of the pages, really. Mr. DE KEYSER. Not after they leave the school, no, sir.

Mr. SICKLES. Would you not feel that there ought to be some one person, even if it is not yourself, even if we make no changes whatsoever, in charge of the pages?

Mr. DE KEYSER. I think on the outside that would be a full-time job in itself and there certainly should be someone appointed to look after them. But in fact the only practical way would be a dormitory situation. Individual boardinghouses simply would not work. It would be impossible to supervise them.

Mr. SICKLES. But assuming that it takes time to get all that done, shouldn't there be someone hired some way through the Congress who would be sort of the chief page?

Mr. DE KEYSER. I would say that would be of great help.

Mr. SICKLES. What happens when a page leaves the school? Where does he go at 9:30 a.m.?

Mr. DE KEYSER. He reports to his respective job, either at the Senate, the Supreme Court, or the House of Representatives.

Mr. SICKLES. And is there someone who directs them?

Mr. DE KEYSER. Yes, the overseers will direct their work for the remainder of the day.

Mr. SICKLES. But once again, he is only concerned with the work performance?

Mr. DE KEYSER. The work.

Mr. SICKLES. He is sort of the job foreman, but that's it?

Mr. DE KEYSER. That's it.

Mr. SICKLES. And he has no other responsibilities as to where they are or what they are doing?

Mr. DE KEYSER. That is correct.

Mr. SICKLES. With respect to the question of whether these pages acquire so much by being here, it seems to me that back when I was in high school, and in fact I guess the older you get the more you look back and reminisce and the more fun you think you had, but as I look back it seems to me that probably the most pleasant experiences I had were in my junior and senior year of high school.