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Mr. HARSHA. Where is that?

Dr. LUND. The estimate is that at least 5,000 students in the high school program here in the District would like to have vocational education.

Mr. HARSHA. How many are they able to take care of?

Dr. LUND. 2,600 at the present time.

Mr. HARSHA. Thank you.

Mr. HORTON. One other question. You indicated that your school in Staples, Minn., serves the entire State. Is this the only vocational school in the State?

Dr. LUND. No, sir. Minnesota, being a sparsely settled State, relatively speaking, has 24 vocational school sites, each one specializing in certain fields. Our areas are machine shop and allied trades, heavy construction equipment, certain agricultural courses such as farm mechanics, and food services.

Mr. HORTON. In other words, you are a part of a State system of vocational education.

Dr. LUND. In a sense this is true. The State system does approve ours. It chose us as a site. It approves each course that we choose to teach, but our local school board is over the vocational school, however, and they must initiate the program.

Mr. HORTON. Do you get special State funds in order to support this activity because you are in the State program?

Dr. LUND. We do, in proportion to the number of students who come from outside of our district and those State funds are partially Federal funds, too.

Mr. HORTON. Thank you.

Mr. HARSHA. Could I ask you one other question? Do you have in your report recommendations as to what this committee could do to alleviate the situation here?

Dr. LUND. Yes.

Mr. HARSHA. Have you given us some suggestions, some recommendations, of what we can do to implement this program and bring it up to the caliber and the potential that it has?

Dr. LUND. Yes. In detail it is spelled out here.

Mr. HARSHA. Thank you.

Dr. LUND. Briefly, it would be a new vocational, occupational, technical center that would take care of 5,000 day students, and another 5,000 adult or evening students.

Mr. HARSHA. Fine. Thank you.

Dr. LUND. Let us move through this quite rapidly.
(Slide.) This now is a post-high-school agriculture program.
(Slide.) This is a related program.

(Slide.) Farm mechanics program.

(Slide.) Assembling equipment. (Slide.) Valve grinding.

(Slide.) Dynamometer.

This is a heavy

Mr. HORTON. Could I ask you one other question? Do you have in this program any in-job training? I understand that there are some programs where industry will have young people on their payroll, but then as part of their program, they are receiving training. Do you have anything like that?

Dr. LUND. Only on a limited basis on the high school level. These are more of the retail selling, this sort of thing, this type of program.

Mr. HORTON. Thank you.

Mr. NELSEN. One question, Dr. Lund. I notice in the rehabilitation program for the handicapped that the District of Columbia was not able to participate to the degree that some of the States were. Is there anything in the area of Federal funds for vocational education education where the District of Columbia is not entitled by law to take advantage of these Federal programs?

Dr. LUND. Not that I know of. Dr. Hansen or Dr. Carroll may know.

Dr. HANSEN. Mr. Pierson, who is head of the vocational education program might answer.

Mr. NELSEN. Is there any area where the District of Columbia finds itself unable to participate because under the law they are not set up as the States are to take advantage of Federal funds?

Mr. PIERSON. No. I do not believe so. Only with one exception, perhaps, and that would be out of the payment of the rehabilitation service out of the social security trust fund, would be the only area, and that is being worked on at the moment.

Dr. LUND. (Slide.) This, of course, is a heavy equipment operation. It took an old mudhole-not one of Minnesota's beautiful 10,000 lakes-this is an old slough, really, and we made a beautiful park and swimming beach out of it.

(Slide.) This bulldozer is sitting on ice. You folks know we have a lot of ice in winter, and that machine is operating on ice on the lake.

Mr. HARSHA. This heavy equipment that they are operating, where do you get that?

Dr. LUND. This is mostly from manpower money. Some of this equipment we bought in the manner I told you, and other equipment was purchased under the manpower program, purchased with manpower funds, just as here in the District they are purchasing equipment with manpower funds.

Mr. HARSHA. Bulldozers and steam shovels?

Dr. LUND. Yes. We buy secondhand equipment, of course.

Part of the course is maintenance and repair, so we do not want new equipment.

(Slide.) This is dumping sand on the ice, which later became the beach.

(Slide.) This is the result a beautiful city park and beach.

(Slide.) This is an airport we are developing. The old airport was not adequate for the present-day planes, it's not a jet airport but we are building a new airport for the city. That was the start of it.

(Slide.) Here are eight Tournopulls which we have.

By the way, we are the Nation's largest heavy-equipment school and the Nation's largest machine shop tool-and-die and allied trades vocational school.

If you think we have a lot of equipment, you are right.

(Slide.) That hill you see is just the top soil pushed there for later landscaping.

(Slide.) Here again, by the way, industry and the union have contributed some equipment to the school. Each has given us one piece of equipment.

Mr. HARSHA. You have Federal assistance with enough funds to buy equipment like that, a tractor and dirt loader?

Dr. LUND. Oh, yes.

Well, that is enough about the Staples program. But I wanted to motivate the thinking here in terms of vocational education.

Mr. NELSEN. One question. How many days have you been here in Washington on your mission as consultant?

Dr. LUND. I suppose at least 30.

Mr. NELSEN. I thought it was rather important to have that made clear because I think that some had the idea that you had been down here for months.

Dr. LUND. No. That I have not. I still have another job back home to take care of, too.

Now, may I show you at this point a few slides here of the District or do you wish to ask some questions?

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to see the slides first.

Dr. LUND. (Slide.) As I said at the outset, these are not fair samplings of what you have in facilities here. You have some good classrooms. You have some good shops. I will show you the problems that you have, and there are many more problem areas than these that I am showing. These are just examples of the problem areas.

This first slide shows a cosmetology classroom. As I recall it, there are 24 students there. If you have 24 subjects, people in there working, you can imagine how crowded it gets to be.

(Slide.) Here is another view of it.

(Slide.) This is a lithopress shop, again a very small shop. They are crowded together, not enough equipment because of the size of the shop and size of the class.

(Slide.) This is a bakery shop. There is only room for 12 students at a time in this shop, which does not make good use of the teacher's time or the salary you pay the teacher who can only work with 12 students.

(Slide.) This is a playground at one of the schools, at Chamberlain, as I remember it.

(Slide.) This is a small radio shop. It also doubles as a math room for the related subjects.

(Slide.) This is a refrigeration shop, likewise doubling as a classroom. Notice the surroundings. It is a quite old structure, of course, and was a storeroom originally.

(Slide.) Because of the lack of space, again, this is an old locker room which has been converted into a classroom.

(Slide.) Now, this, I think, is significant. What school is this? Mr. CLARK. Chamberlain.

Dr. LUND. Last year, 587 freshmen applied for admission. Only 265 could be accepted. I repeat that: 587 applied and 265 could be accepted.

Mr. HARSHA. What happens to those who are rejected?

Dr. LUND. Well, they can go back into the regular high school program but they are certainly good material for dropouts.

Mr. HARSHA. What was the reason for only a 50-percent acceptance? Dr. LUND. Basically, there is not enough room. So what they have to do is to take the students who are best suited for the courses which they offer. Now, many of these students would not qualify for the courses that are being offered if there were all kinds of room, but if you had that much room, you could offer so-called lower level courses

that would meet the needs of the student who could become a filling station operator, for example.

Mr. HORTON. What type of programs are these? Is this part of the high school?

Dr. LUND. Yes, sir. Here in the District, vocational education is, I would say, at least 90 percent on the high school level, rather than on the post-high-school level as in most parts of the country. I think eventually the trend will be toward post-high-school vocational education here, too. However, I think we at this point must continue to concentrate on the high school student or we are going to lose him. The students you have in the District need motivation to stay in school. If you make that boy or girl wait until after they graduate for the high school, many of them will be discouraged and drop out far too soon to take part in a vocational program.

Mr. HORTON. Can you not have a combination of the two?
Dr. LUND. Oh, yes; and you do have here.

Mr. HORTON. Is this not preferable?

Dr. LUND. Yes; I am sure it is.

Mr. HORTON. That is to say, a program in the high school and then also a program for posthigh school?

Dr. LUND. That is right. This is desirable. This is in our proposal, too.

Mr. HORTON. At the present time there is not any posthigh school here, is there?

Dr. LUND. Yes, there is. At Armstrong Adult Center, several manpower courses are taught there and there are evening courses in all of the vocational high schools in the District. Adults do take part in these evening programs. I wish some of my college friends could see the utilization of space that Dr. Hansen makes in his school system. It is fantastic. There is not a spare square foot anywhere that is not being used for something in the vocational high schools in this District. Dr. Hansen is using everything possible for classrooms. Locker rooms, cafeterias are in use. Libraries have been given up in part or entirely. Gymnasiums are in use. Space is the problem.

(Slide.) These girls are preparing for phsyical education. These girls are changing clothes on the stage of their gymnasium. They are fortunate. They have a gymnasium. They change clothes on the stage. They have no locker room. They go out into the gym, have their physical education, come back to the stage, put their clothes back on and go to class. There are no showers. It must be this way or there will be no physical education.

Mr. HARSHA. What school is that?

Dr. LUND. Chamberlain also.

(Slide.) This is a combination auditorium-gymnasium, not large enough for either one. As you can see, the court is certainly very small, very limited for spectators. As I understand it, the sports program as far as vocational high schools are concerned have to use other football fields from the regular high schools and use gymnasiums of the regular high schools. They do not have adequate seating or in many cases there just is not space for the sport.

Mr. HORTON. Do they utilize the schools during the evening hours for any of these programs?

Dr. LUND. You bet they do. Mostly adults in the evening.

Mr. HORTON. How about during the summer when school is out?

Dr. LUND. Yes; there are summer programs-not, of course, in all of the schools, and not on a full-time basis, but there are summer programs going on all summer.

Mr. HORTON. Can there be a better utilization of space by using the facilities in the evening and during the summer?

Dr. LUND. Not as far as the evening is concerned. It is being used at its maximum so far as the demand is concerned. As far as the summer is concerned, the District schools are willing to provide the space and the instruction as long as there is a demand. But many of these students do not want to go to school in the summer. Mr. HARSHA. Well, that is universal, is it not?

Dr. LUND. Yes.

(Slide.) This is an example of how there is no place for the janitor in this school to store his stuff, so he uses the boy's lavatory to store his equipment. I just discarded about a dozen slides showing the same thing wherein he has to use lavatory space for storage and for janitor's supplies. They use regular storage space for other purposes, usually instructional in nature.

(Slide.) OK, this is an old locker room converted to a child-care

center.

(Slide.) This is a print shop. You can see how crowded this is. Mr. HARSHA. Is there not a safety factor involved in this also? Dr. LUND. Yes. These are old buildings, you see, so very few of these buildings were built as vocational schools. Some are handme-downs built for junior high school purposes, for example; and those which were built as vocational schools-well, I guess the architect just did not have much background in vocational education because they just were not well suited for that purpose.

(Slide.) This is a carpentry shop and it has to be divided into three separate rooms for lack of space.

Mr. HORTON. What about their equipment? Do they get the equipment through the manpower development program?

Dr. LUND. Yes, they do, and through the Perkins program, and they have good equipment, but it is power equipment and how can a teacher supervise three separate classrooms at once? It makes it very difficult.

Mr. HORTON. I visited a school back in my district about 2 weeks ago that has a lot of this equipment. I visited during the evening, and they had about 500 students. These are not students in high school but they were people that would be classified as dropouts. They were utilizing a building that had been made available by the city which had formerly been city offices. They were reconverting the building into classrooms. They had barber classes, nurses training, math classes, and food preparation. It was all in one central building.

Is there any possibility of any buildings like that being made available by the District of Columbia government, perhaps, to the school system that might be utilized for these purposes?

Dr. LUND. Not that we know of.

Mr. HORTON. Perhaps Commissioner Duncan can answer.

Commissioner DUNCAN. Mr. Horton, I doubt that very seriously because the clamor right now is for space throughout the District government. This problem is not peculiar to the schools alone.

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