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college work with poverty youngsters that had been funded in a variety of ways, frequently by foundations in 1963, 1964, and 1965. I suppose the most prominent is that group of prep schools hooked up with Dartmouth College in the so-called A-B-C program. We have included in our guidelines college prep schools that had residential capacity so they could operate on their campuses in the summer, full blown residential programs which most other private or parochial high schools could not do.

We have no intention of converting Upward Bound to a private prep school program, yet we did not want to exclude them entirely. Some of those have done a superb job.

Mr. ERLENBORN. I understand the students taking part in these secondary schools are not the regular students in those schools but are brought in from the outside.

Dr. FROST. That is right.

Mr. ERLENBORN. One other question.

These programs are funded directly with the school that is operating, usually the higher education school and I notice nine of these in the secondary schools are private. How many of these are church related and what problem, if any, do you have with the funding programs in church-related schools?

Dr. FROST. I don't know how many are church-related; you know church-related is on a scale. Wesleyan University in Connecticut has probably not been a Methodist college for years and yet it is so conceived.

Community action programs have elaborate regulations on how a church institution, whether college or other, may behave within a Government grant from OEO. I could file that with you. It is quite elaborate and it runs through every grant we make to such a school. Mr. ERLENBORN. No further questions.

Mrs. GREEN. Congressman Esch.

Mr. ESCH. Thank you.

I wonder if you would comment on the question, if you had more funds, how extensive could this program be and how long could it continue?

Dr. FROST. This year we knew we would have limited funds, only about $2 or $3 million of new money. We tried to discourage the colleges all fall, explaining how bad the odds were. Nevertheless, we got 125 full-blown applications which we had to reject. We were able to fund only 27. We had about 150 new applications and had to reject 125.

By our program judgment and the people we used to appraise these, we should have funded about 70 of them as good programs, well proposed. I don't know what the pool would be if we ever sent out a signal-there would be substantial amounts of money. I think it would be quite high.

Mr. ESCH. You have never, as administrator, tried to determine the depth of the problem you are trying to attack? You look for it to continue 5 years, 10 years, 15 years?

Dr. FROST. There are 1,400,000 American youngsters in high school that are poor.

Mr. ESCH. Do you think they should all go to college?

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Dr. FROST. No, I do not, nor will they ever. I think some 600,000 or more of these students should go and we only have 20,000 in this


Mr. EscH. When you see a means of coordinating this program with the Office of Education, can you see your program absorbed by the Office of Education entirely in the next 2 or 3 years? There has been a discussion Headstart could move in there. Could you say that this office could move into the Office of Education?

Dr. FROST. My opinion is that on academic terms alone, Associate Director Muirhead and those working with higher education in USOE that agency has been good-I have no objection.

Mr. Escн. You see no problem with an integrated system?

Dr. FROST. I would rather see it in antipoverty. I think that is what it is and I don't think the Office of Education is fundamentally an antipoverty agency.

Mr. EscH. You see it fundamentally as an antipoverty rather than education?

Dr. FROST. I see it as both.

Mr. EscH. I wonder if we might go to another area.

The question you raised on page 7 of your testimony regarding the relationship between the ongoing program such as NDEA loans and the apparent problem within the institutions regarding continuing on. Are you suggesting here the need of more coordination between institutions and Upward Bound in future years to get these youngsters into continuing programs of aid?

Dr. FROST. Yes, sir, the more the better. I think there is a gap in the current higher education response we all make and that is the special counseling and kind of informal needs most of these youngsters will have when they move into higher education.

My own view is-I have experience with this in moving some of these into my own institution, the conventional dean's office and conventional approach is not going to do the trick with these youngsters. I would like to see a way where a college could apply to some agency to support a full-time or half-time additional person who looks after those OEO students.

Mr. ESCH. You raise important issues. I would like to raise this with you; should the poorest students carry the highest educational debts?

Dr. FROST. That's the fact now, but it shouldn't be.

Mr. ESCH. Should less well prepared students be forced to put in many work-study hours per week?

Dr. FROST. No, sir.

Mr. EscH. Will colleges invest their dollars in a student taking a lighter load and going for 5 years?

Dr. FROST. Eventually I think they will, Their tendency and that of all of us in the colleges has not been to do that, but I think we will change our responses to accommodate better these kind of youngsters. I think the good will around this problem is substantial.

Mr. ESCH. Could we go back to your first two answers.

You believe we should give additional aid to the poorer student rather than treating all students alike. You further suggest the poor students should not carry the highest educational debt? We would have to give them more funds than the nonpoor students?

Dr. FROST. Yes, sir.

Mr. Escн. You believe this should be the pattern for the next 5 or 10 years?

Dr. FROST. Yes; I believe a pattern of aid for the poor in education is now in many pieces on the books, with NDEA, work-study, and so on, and I would like to see it packaged up as GI bill of rights for the


Mr. Escн. Should they be forced to carry a heavier workload than the so-called nonpoor students do? You think they should be all treated equally?

Dr. FROST. Most of these youngsters getting to college will have all they can do to attack the academic schedule without carrying 15 hours of work-study. If it is possible to avoid that I think it should be done. I have nothing against work, having done it in my own background, but I don't have the problems some of these kids have.

Mr. Escн. That is all.

Mrs. GREEN. Is there any evidence to support the theory that the state of the father's pocketbook should be the criteria by which you would measure the amount of work a student could or should carry in college?

Dr. FROST. I don't think that would be the primary reason I would make the statement. I think these youngsters come in to college on the whole just less prepared and I would rather, if it is possible, that they are not required to put in so much time in nonacademic activity.

Mrs. GREEN. I would agree the Upward Bound youngsters would not be in Upward Bound unless they were less prepared.

Dr. FROST. That is right.

Mrs. GREEN. When you are talking of youngsters coming from poor families, is there any evidence that they are less prepared to do college work than youngsters from middle-income families?

Dr. FROST. I don't think there is any evidence either way.

Mrs. GREEN. Right; that would be my judgment. So would there be any reason for singling them out for special programs or special consideration?

Dr. FROST. I guess what confuses me somewhat, Madam Chairman, is the antipoverty agency has this mandate and in this way I am trying to meet that mandate and answer that question for Upward Bound students. You are, with your responsibilities, enlarging it to mean the poor in general and asking those questions. I agree with you there is certainly no solid view that the youngster, just because he is economically poor, should not carry 15 hours of work-study. I think I would agree with that.

Mrs. GREEN. I would go further. Isn't this kind of a faulty criteria by which to judge the ability of a person, his academic ability, motivation, or anything else? There are many poor families that have wonderfully fine parents, good family life, motivation, and everything else. It seems we have gone overboard in saying if you come from a family of a certain income that you are going to be judged differently from anybody else.

Do you consider a $4,000 income as a poverty level for a family of six?

Dr. FROST. Yes.

Mrs. GREEN. Isn't this kind of a superficial approach? What about a family of a $4,500 income? How can you be fair in drawing these arbitrary amounts?

Dr. FROST. Arbitrary amounts are always a problem but you have to have your standards or there is no program there. These are the ones OEO has drawn out. I know there are a great many poor youngsters who are tremendously motivated and high performing. I also know that the college going data on the poor vis-a-vis other Americans is that the poor go to college at a much lower rate.

Mrs. GREEN. Isn't there some correlation also between the abilities of the person? I would think there is some correlation between the IQ, for lack of a better word, of a person and whether he digs ditches or is a college professor. It seems to me when we put up this rather superficial determination of poverty, we then throw all other criteria out the door.

Dr. FROST. I have no well-formed view on that, Mrs. Green, I really don't. I have worried about the dropout rate in high school, which, as you know, is much higher among the poorer kids and the college dropout rate which is much higher among the poorer kids. That is the discrepancy with which we are trying to deal.

Mr. Escн. Would the chairman yield?

Mrs. GREEN. Yes.

Mr. ESCH. Do you know of any young person today who is qualified who could not receive a higher education if that person is (a) properly motivated and, (b) if channeled to the right institution?

Dr. FROST. Providing the youngster was willing to accept a substantial loan and can put in this kind of work-study while in school, the answer is I don't know of any such youngster.

Mr. ESCH. I think, Madam Chairman, that is a crucial question. We are talking here of just basically motivation, because there are no youngsters today who could not receive a higher education under our present system through the loan structure if they are qualified and informed of these opportunities. It is a question of channeling the proper youngsters into the proper situation.

I would like to see evidence, if you have evidence to the contrary. Dr. FROST. We have kids who have never heard of college who are high school students.

Mr. ESCH. That is right.

Dr. FROST. I want to state as clearly as I can my own view that when you are trying to move a poverty youngster from a family that, has no college in its universe into college, the first to go with the mother saying, "you should stay home and get a job because I need that $20 or whatever it is." a father that has vanished and a lot of younger brothers and sisters coming along and, when you say to him on May 10, you can go to some institution providing you take a $1,500 loan. That is a tremendous amount of money to a youngster. His idea may be different from yours or mine where we can go to a bank and float a lot of credit.

I feel a lot of youngsters fear that and say, let us just go on the job market.

Mr. ESCH. Thank you.

Mrs. GREEN. Most of your comments have been in relation to the arrangements with 4-year institutions?

Dr. FROST. Yes, ma'am.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you have any arrangements with junior colleges, technical institutes or vocational schools?

Dr. FROST. No, we do not and this is a very active subject within the agency. We have not yet been able to fund the 4-year colleges that applied. We are rejecting a large number of them. There is a solid discussion in OEO, Mrs. Green, that either we or somebody in OEO or somebody in OE ought to be thinking of programs like this in the junior college structure.

Mrs. GREEN. Your programs are only in residential schools, is that what you are saying?

Dr. FROST. No; we funded about 18 nonresidential ones to see whether it made any difference. At Berkeley we have a nonresidential program. At Harvard we have a nonresidential program but the great majority are residential. I would like to see someone engineer a program like this directed to the junior college.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you have authority to do that under the law?

Dr. FROST. I don't know. Upward Bound is not mentioned in the OEO statute.

Mrs. GREEN. I don't see why this has not been explored. I think it would be almost more important in terms of junior colleges and technical schools.

Dr. FROST. I know the section 207 people are now working up some demonstration with junior colleges. I could not give you the details. Mrs. GREEN. Do you give any money to foundations?

Dr. FROST. No, ma'am.

Mrs. GREEN. Do you know of any money in OEO that is given directly to foundations?

Dr. FROST. I don't know the answer to that. Not a penny of Upward Bound goes to a foundation as far as I know. As you know when you make a grant to the State University of New York, you do it to the "Research Foundation of the State of New York" but that is a mechanism, I believe, all of it goes to the university. Ostensibly it goes to a foundation but it actually goes to the university.

Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Gibbons.

Mr. GIBBONS. As you know, when this program first came out, I was quite critical and we had many discussions of it and you talked me around to a position where I have not been quite so critical and, since I have had opportunity to visit a number of campuses where you have programs, I think you are doing a good job.

There is certainly a lot of room for this upreach or outreach. I agree it would probably be good to get students into a junior college setup. As you remember I wrote you about that in connection with some of our Florida colleges. I want to assure you under the law can do it. There is no problem there. It is just a matter of money. Thank you.

Mrs. GREEN. Congressman Burton.

Mr. BURTON. No questions.

Mrs. GREEN. Thank you both very much.

Dr. FROST. Thank you, Madam Chairman.


Mrs. GREEN. We will now have representatives from the National, University Extension Association, Dr. Goerke, from the Florida State Board of Regents.

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