the virtues of high academic aspirations, with sound and concrete planning. It has the further advantage of putting to productive use an already existing facility. At a time when building costs are so high-this is an important consideration.

I need hardly add that the time is ripe for an enterprise of this nature. Perhaps never before has the need for more and better educational facilities been more acute.

I believe that the new college should have the full support of the public and of the business community. I hope that my own commitments in the future, will allow me to participate in making it a reality.

Sincerely yours,

CECIL J. NORTH.

Senator MUSKIE. I notice that Congressman Keogh is here, and I wonder if the Congressman would like to make a statement at this point before we proceed with the questioning.

STATEMENT OF HON. EUGENE J. KEOGH, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Representative KEOGH. I would, Mr. Chairman, because it will be on the same subject matter. I appreciate your recognizing me. Senator MUSKIE. The Senator is reluctant not to recognize the other body.

Representative KEOGH. I think that is a typical display of the wisdom that rests in your body.

I want also to welcome to the city of New York our distinguished junior Senator who has always been alert to be on the top of all the public problems.

Senator KEATING. I welcome to Manhattan my colleague from Brooklyn.

Representative KEOGH. The only other formality in which I should like to indulge briefly, Mr. Chairman, is to say to you that the only consolation that I as a native New Yorker can take from the weather that greeted you here today is that you are from Maine and not from Florida or California.

Senator MUSKIE. Even from Maine, we are not accustomed to this kind of treatment.

Representative KEOGH. It gives you an idea of what we are up against even weatherwise.

But permit me, Mr. Chairman, to congratulate you and your colleagues on the efforts that you are making here to resolve this problem. When you digest the relevant information and study the different proposals, I am certain that you are going to make a forthright and proper decision.

It is, to me, intolerable that a property as significant as and as valuable as Ellis Island should remain abandoned and unused while we suffer the historic buildings to fall into decay. It is not as though we do not have alternatives. Among the proposals which you have been listening to today there is one that appears to me to offer a real practical solution. The plan that would convert the island into a new liberal arts college would not only reduce the problem of Ellis Island, but it also offers, to my mind, an exciting opportunity to help answer an immediate, critical, and increasing need.

I am sure that the value to the Nation of a first-rate new institution of higher learning is apparent to everyone.

I would parenthetically say, even to Senators, but I won't.

Senator MUSKIE. I think the record should show that the Congressman looked at Senator Keating when he said that.

Representative KEOGH. That it will be first rate is assured by the exceedingly high quality of the sponsoring group. The professors and educators that comprise Ellis Island for Higher Education are among the Nation's leading academic figures. They are, as you have heard, backed by some of our most enlightened businessmen, leaders such as Frederick Richmond, whom you have just listened to, who was instrumental in saving Carnegie Hall, and Edward Booher who, besides being president of the McGraw-Hill Book Co., is chairman of the board of trustees at Antioch College.

It is heartening that men of such caliber join forces behind such a project. They have worked, I am told, for nearly 3 years to produce a plan for the new college at Ellis Island that is both original and practical.

For Ellis Island to offer educational opportunity to a new generation seems to me most appropriate to her past record as the gateway to opportunity for millions of immigrants, who have remained and have become great citizens of this country. I am particularly pleased with the desire of this group to preserve and utilize the historic old buildings. There is no better way to infuse them with new life than to adapt them to the educational challenge of the coming decades.

Because of her special location in the great harbor, thousands of visitors pass Ellis Island daily. Set beside the Statute of Liberty, the symbolic value of the new institution is most important. We should not allow this opportunity to pass. Let us make a farsighted decision.

The other proposals are all most worthy. But in my opinion they can all be placed elsewhere. Let us provide for the island a new institution that will belong to the Nation and that they will be proud to point to as we pass it in the harbor. Let us preserve the old buildings and put them to an appropriate use.

In short, Mr. Chairman, let us back the efforts of the distinguished citizens who want to create a new liberal arts college on that site. We have worked unselfishly toward that end for a long time. Let us share their vision and help make a new and exciting reality of Ellis Island, one in which we may all partake and one of which we may all be proud.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I trust that your stay in New York will be fruitful and constructive and that you come back to see us more often.

Senator MUSKIE. I have enjoyed my stay, and the opportunity to associate again with my colleagues in the Senate and House has made the trip all the more worth while.

Representative KEOGH. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MR. TILTON-Resumed

Senator MUSKIE. Now, may I say at the outset of the questioning that as is the case with many of these proposals, and undoubtedly all of them, there is a consciousness on the part of the proponents of the importance of developing a use that is in keeping with the traditions of the island, and I certainly would not quarrel with the concept in that respect.

I am interested, however, in some of the details, and I wonder, Mr. Tilton, if we may now ask you to elaborate somewhat upon your testimony. As you know, I and members of the staff yesterday had an opportunity to spend the afternoon on the island under very unfavorable climatic conditions. Apparently Congressman Keogh didn't realize we were going out there yesterday afternoon or he might have done something about it, and so perhaps we didn't see these facilities in as promising a setting as we might have.

And having in mind what we saw yesterday, it seems to me that the costs of conversion that you have listed here are remarkably low. Being a layman in this respect, I would not presume to disagree with them, but I would like to see them elaborated upon. My impression was that the large building, the most promising building on Island No. 1, so-called, is structurally sound, but it seemed to me to be an expensive proposition to give it a quality restoration job, and I assume we are talking about a quality restoration job.

Mr. TILTON. We are indeed, Senator.

Senator MUSKIE. The buildings on Islands 2 and 3 seem to me to offer much more of a challenge, and so, with those general comments I wonder if you would elaborate. I turn to page IV-7. Is that exhibit IV-7 of the plan?

Mr. TILTON. These are cost figures, yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. I don't know to what degree you could elaborate that would be meaningful to me, but I would like to have you try. Incidentally, before we get to that, is this the same plan as was introduced in the record by Senator Williams in the hearings in September?

Mr. JONES. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. The plan was put in the record at that time, then, and there is no necessity for reincluding it at this point.

Would you then proceed, Mr. Tilton, having in mind what I tried to indicate as our concern?

Mr. TILTON. We have a breakdown here of the costs that we arrived at in making a trip through the buildings with engineers and architects. I don't know whether you want me to go through each figure.

Senator MUSKIE. Let's take the first one on the list, the president's residence. That is at the end of the second group of buildings on, I guess, Island No. 2 is how it is described.

Mr. TILTON. Yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. This includes rooms on two floors, does it not? Mr. TILTON. Two or three, I think.

Senator MUSKIE. Large rooms with fireplaces. Item No. 3, was it? Mr. TILTON. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. And it seemed to me that the plaster on the walls was in pretty miserable condition. Structurally, I was not in a position to evaluate the buildings.

Mr. TILTON. The buildings have been neglected for a couple of years or more, and, of course, without heat, plaster becomes damp and falls off. Some of the heating pipes have been stolen from the buildings. They were taken away from the island at night when there wasn't an adequate maintenance crew. We recommend completely new mechanical equipment, that is new heating and new electric.

Originally they had, or still do have d.c. current. We recommend changing to a.c. But, actually, replastering is what we consider to be superficial.

Senator MUSKIE. This would require complete replastering?

Mr. TILTON. In some cases it would require complete, and in some places not.

Senator MUSKIE. What would you do to the floor? I can't recall what floors were. They are wooden floors, are they not?

Mr. TILTON. Some of them are concrete slabs with wood floor finish. Senator MUSKIE. Are we talking about the president's house? Mr. TILTON. Yes. I think it is a concrete floor with wood finish on top in which case it need only be scraped and refinished, the floor. The structure is sound, the walls are sound, the flooring is sound, the roof is sound, except that in many cases leaders and gutters have become stopped up and have overflowed sometimes even into the buildings, so that we can see evidence of leaking water in the building which is occasioned only by a stopped-up gutter and backing up underneath shingles, and, again, fairly superficial.

Senator MUSKIE. This would require a new kitchen.

Mr. TILTON. The president's house would have to have a new kitchen and new plumbing, piping. Perhaps the fixtures would be adequate. On the next page we have a start of a room-by-room breakdown on each of these buildings. The residential building starting with the president's residence is given in quite a bit of detail there to show how we arrived at the figure. This may be helpful, instead of repeating it here verbally.

Senator KEATING. May I inquire at this point what that was used for before, this one which you propose as a president's residence?

Mr. TILTON. I believe that was a caretaker building. It was a residential building before.

Senator MUSKIE. Wasn't it the director's building or the superintendent's building, if that was his title?

Mr. TILTON. Yes.

Also, Senator Muskie, we have complete floor plans of this area which we have drawn up and would be happy to submit prints to your committee, if you would like to have them. This is just a rough plan here.

Senator MUSKIE. Could you mail them to us and we will make them an exhibit?

Mr. TILTON. We have one set of prints here which is a little bit shopworn, but we could submit that.

Senator MUSKIE. It would be easier if you could mail them.
Mr. TILTON. We will mail them gladly.

Senator MUSKIE. And we will include them in the committee files as an exhibit.

Mr. TILTON. They show our use for each space.

Senator MUSKIE. You have estimated that $13,000 would do that job for the president's residence.

Mr. TILTON. That was 2 years ago.

Senator MUSKIE. Four percent a year in addition?

Mr. TILTON. That is right. These figures do not include the mechanicals which are further along in the report.

Senator MUSKIE. Yes. Well, there is $2 million for electrical work, which I assume includes

Mr. TILTON. All the buildings.

Senator MUSKIE. All the buildings?

Mr. TILTON. That is right.

Senator MUSKIE. And the plumbing and heating and the ventilating?

Mr. TILTON. So to arrive at any total figure for any one building it would all have to be added together.

Senator MUSKIE. The total mechanical is $212 million, which is a little under 50 percent of the total cost. So if you added $6,000, roughly, on a pro rata basis, this would give you the total cost for the president's residence?

Mr. TILTON. As of 1960, yes, sir.

Senator MUSKIE. As of 1960.

On the preceding page-let's take the building on Island No. 1. This is the major job, I take it. You spoke in your testimony of this large assembly hall. That, I take it, is the large dome room which is there now.

Mr. TILTON. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. That seemed to be in about as good shape as any room in the building; is that not so?

Mr. TILTON. Yes. That is on an upper floor with the library underneath, in our thinking,

Senator MUSKIE. To what use would you put the large dormitory rooms in that building? Would that involve very much renovation?

Mr. TILTON. That building was primarily an academic building for professors' offices and seminar rooms and classrooms, many rooms around the auditorium, but there is a mezzanine running around that large room which we had in mind would make a good musuem area. Senator MUSKIE. To what use would those rooms off the mezzanine be put, offices?

Mr. TILTON. Partly offices and perhaps more detailed museum space. Senator MUSKIE. What would be the total cost of converting that particular building; can you give us that figure?

Mr. TILTON. We have it here.

Senator MUSKIE. It is not identified as such here.
Mr. JONES. $470,300.

Mr. TILTON. Page 15 of section IV.

Senator MUSKIE. Academic building?

Mr. TILTON. That is, again, without

Senator MUSKIE. The gymnasium is in that building also.

Mr. JONES. This is Mr. Joseph Levine, who is executive director. Mr. LEVINE. The main building includes, besides the main hall, a large area beneath it which you may remember as a pillared area. It is quite large enough for the library we have planned which is for 250,000 volumes. It also includes in the two wings many rooms of different sizes which would house all of the necessary classrooms and offices-academic office space. The several rooms off the main balcony are additional to our immediate purposes.

There weren't many, you will recall. They are tiled. We have additional facilities in that very building, tiled rooms for laboratories. They could be either additional laboratories which at the moment we don't necessarily need, or they may be used for a possible museum which we had contemplated at one time, until we discovered that at Liberty Island the Immigration Museum had already been not only planned but is coming quickly into being. We didn't want to duplicate these facilities. But it is still possible that some kind of an appropriate display, particularly with reference to Ellis Island's unique role in immigration, could be used there.