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We are very encouraged and we think that the concept of this project is very consistent with what this Congress and this current administration is pursuing, a mandate for change, for improvement. With Vice President Gore's initiative on reinventing government, that is, how to take government and make it more efficient, more effective, and more responsive to the people taking the lead. When it comes to Indian affairs and the management of our tribal governmental affairs, we think this concept is very consistent with that reinvent government initiative. It will make the U.S. governmental policy of a government-to-government relationship very meaningful.

So as we move forward we are trying to make sure that it allows us to control, based upon our governmental priorities established through our people and our community what our needs really are. So that if the Federal Government is going to provide us resources for program A through Z-whether social services or natural resources or construction projects, et cetera-that our governments prioritize how they should be utilized and we should be able to administer them in a way and show Congress and the administration that we can do it responsibly and more efficiently.

We think a critical principle we are establishing also is the trust and respect of tribal governments. There has been a great deal of frustration over the past-and you have heard it through countless hearings over paternal guardianship or the ward relationship with the tribal governments. We get quite frustrated with the bureaucracy or the tentacles of the regulatory system surrounding us and hindering us or obstructing our abilities to carryout our responsibilities.

This initiative would remove those obstacles. It would show that we can do it and we can do it in a very effective, responsible way. So we feel that the effort is a bold one. It is a statement to the Federal Government that you need to learn to understand and have confidence that the tribal governments can administer these programs responsibly. We can establish our own guidelines, regulations, and ordinances that would provide oversight for Indian child welfare programs or housing programs or construction projects or natural resource trust activities.

We feel that through the last 3 or 4 years of our experimentation of this concept that we have proven that the trust and treaty rights or the governmental responsibilities to the people or the stewardship of these treaty resources are managed responsibly. We have shown that we are using those resources very effectively. The independent assessments and our own reports all reflect that. We think that any other audits or any other reviews of that will reflect the successes we are experiencing.

We think part of it is that we are removing that day-to-day oversight, that day-to-day observation by the bureaucracy. This is where your priorities should be, or this is how you should conduct this particular activity, or this is what your needs truly are in terms of enforcement, courts or whatever they think it might be. The initiative is not necessarily about reduction of administrative authority. It is empowerment to tribal governments to control our affairs. It does mean a reduction of the bureaucracy. It means an elimination of FTEs. It means an elimination of offices that

aren't necessary. It means elimination of programs that are now being transferred to the tribal governments because we can administer them and manage them effectively and we do not need the administration to do that.

It does mean a redefinition of their role into an advocacy role. And it means that you have to go through a transition to understand what that role means. There is a great deal of difficulty in learning about that new role.

We feel that over the last 3 years we have proven and justified that we don't need to remain in the pilot demonstration phase. It is time now to say that it does work. There are some problems out there that have shared, and you probably hear about them one way or another, because of the complexities of Indian country from Alaska to Florida. But we can solve those problems. We are showing that our creativity and our ability to tackle those issueswhether it is identification of how we would share in certain activities or Central Office functions, et cetera, how we carve out the share-we can find ways to accomplish that objective.

But in our judgment, the need for this legislation is great. First, we need to make sure the administration knows that it truly is going to be a legal document or a legal instrument that the tribes can use to carryout their governmental functions and responsibilities, that it does comply with greater consistency with our sovereign authority.

Second, is the fact that there is a lot of tribes sitting at the threshold of the door wanting to get in. Now that more and more tribes understand what is going on, they know that they want to become involved. Now they are looking at the legislation as it currently exists and sees a restriction of 30 tribes. We have slowly opened it up, and now we are at the point where it must be open for those who want to participate relative to the capacity and capability of the administration. I think it is very important that we accomplish this objective and continue to move forward with regard to that new partnership.

We have in place the structure that is necessary to administer the project and to inform other tribes as they consider the project and embark on it themselves. Our own restructuring efforts conducted by the participating tribes may want to be entertained or utilized as examples as new tribes modify their own operations.

We have designed a process with which you can continue to measure the success of the project. We have designed a formula with criteria as to how you would allocate the dollars or share dollars at all levels of this operation. And the reporting structure that shows the accountability is in place.

We want to establish a piece of legislation that will transcend new Members of Congress, new congresses, and new administrations. It is a bipartisan concept. That is very important: A foundation that does not shift in whether or not we are going to continue to examine it. So that stable commitment is going to be very impor

tant.

It is still pioneering, to a large extent, because we will be moving into other aspects of the Federal Administration as we move from the Department of the Interior into HHS and IHS, or we begin to explore the other Federal agencies and departments.

We would like to look at this initiative from the perspective of our past experiences with the Self-Determination Act and the 638 regulations. This initiative came out of that effort. It took 5 years to get those regulations published. It simply reflects that mechanism has a lot of problems in terms of advancing the tribes' governmental authority and responsibilities.

I think that what I would like to point out is that we have shown that we can identify our priorities. We can determine what they are and administer them through this approach. We have our own regulations and our own rules that will guide our operations. We have shown that the reallocation of resources works effectively and responsibly and that Indians are accountable.

I would like to conclude by reminding the committee of some principles in change that Dr. Eddie Brown had shared with us a short while ago. I think they are very appropriate. He called them the four Ts: Tradition, time, turf, and trust.

We are changing tradition: A traditional way of doing business with tribes, traditional ideas about how you conduct business with tribes, traditional thoughts and ideas about who councils are and how responsible and effective they are.

Time it takes time to resolve these kinds of initiatives. And it takes time to work out the issues that we need to examine in making it work. It takes time to get people together. As you are well aware, there are a lot of issues on our plate that this Congress is entertaining: health care initiatives, tribal courts initiatives, gaming issues, and on and on. You see this constantly in these various forms.

Turf-whose turf is it? Who should control tribal affairs? That is an attitude and a philosophy. People come into this system and they bring with them their presuppositions about what Indian tribes are, what they can, and what they cannot do. We need to shift that turf and that notion of those turfs about who should be in control.

Last but not least, of course, is trust. If we want partnership, we're going to have to bridge that trust. It must be a meaningful concept that is going to bridge our relationship.

So Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that I would really encourage this Congress to advance this legislation through expeditiously. It would be a foundation upon which we can build. It is something that is meaningful. We have proven that it succeeds and works. We can work out the details as we work our way through it.

I thank you for this opportunity to testify and look forward to answering any questions you may have.

[Prepared statement of Mr. Allen appears in appendix.] Senator MCCAIN. Thank you, Chairman Allen.

Chief Elmer Manatowa.

STATEMENT OF ELMER MANATOWA, JR., PRINCIPAL CHIEF, SAC AND FOX OF OKLAHOMA BUSINESS COMMITTEE, STROUD, OK

Mr. MANATOWA. Good morning, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear today. My name is Elmer Manatowa. I am the principal chief of the Sac and Fox Nation. We are a second tier self-governance tribe.

I appeared here 2 years ago to discuss with the committee and to let you know how it was going out there in Indian country. At that time, I mentioned that the Office of Self-Governance was working very closely with the tribes at that time. I want to let you know that they are still doing that.

I didn't indicate that we were having trouble with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I used the example and I will use it again todaydid you ever try to pull a tooth out of a live alligator [Laughter.] That is the problem that we had experienced in the early years of obtaining budget information, program information—and that still exists today. We are beginning to turn that alligator around, in my opinion. I think we need to get some teeth into some kind of legislation and hopefully the permanent legislation so that alligator is biting at wherever you want it to bite within the Federal agency of the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

The self-governance project is working for us. We entered in 1991. Prior to that, under the 638 process, we contracted the agency function of the Bureau of Indian Affairs in 1988. So going into self-governance was a relatively easy process for us programwise. It was just like another day at the office. But it did allow us the flexibility to enhance our own types of program and it still is doing that.

Self-governance may not be for all tribes, but we feel that as time goes by, more will learn that to try to develop enhanced true self-determination and true self-governance is getting closer.

Ron has mentioned many things that need to be done. Of course, the main thing I see is making this legislation permanent. The word gets to many of the Federal agencies, I think, at least the Bureau of Indian Affairs, that it is a temporary thing and that soon the alligator will be turned back around the other way and we will go on down the road. It also gives a message to other agencies that are funding Indian programs that it is going to be time that you begin to look and plan for the future date when you will also be under self-governance.

That is one of the things that I am actively hoping for and working for, that we will be able to negotiate with these people to bring total self-governance-I don't know that we will ever reach the point of total-but get closer to that point of self-governance and self-determination. But we are going to have some teeth in some kind of legislation, in my opinion, to really let agencies know that we are for real.

I think the Indian nations and the Indian governments that have decided to go into self-governance realize that. They are here to stay.

I will not read my complete text-and I know Ron has covered many things. One of the things I did want to mention-and before I forget it, I want to back up a little bit.

We were the first government to negotiate a compact with the Indian Health Service. That has just been completed this year. In addition to that, we have entered into a prototype project with the Department of Agriculture, a new project which is working toward self-governance. I am very happy with the progress we have made in the past with that.

I especially want to comment a little more in connection with the prototype project. I think it is something where probably we ought to look toward the other agencies in bringing those in under the self-governance. Maybe some prototype projects where we can go out and demonstrate what is happening.

This administration is committed to reinvent government. I believe through the prototype project that we are working-we are assisting in convincing other agencies that this is a way to go. We hope that this will continue. We know that we are going to be successful with the projects that we are working on.

I thank you. My written comments are with you. There are several other areas I would like to cover, but I know time is of the essence. I appreciate Mr. Allen's comments and Joe DeLaCruz will be here.

I thank you again very much for allowing me a period of time to appear again. Turn that alligator around for us, please, sir.

[Prepared statement of Mr. Manatowa appears in appendix.] Senator MCCAIN. Thank you for your continued input to this committee. We are very grateful not only for the information you provide us but the example that you and your tribe provide to the rest of the Nation. I think it is exemplary. You all have been in the lead and we appreciate it very much.

I am happy to welcome back Joe DeLaCruz. We are happy to see you again. Please proceed.

STATEMENT OF JOE DELACRUZ, PRESIDENT, QUINAULT
BUSINESS COMMITTEE, TAHOLAH, WA

Mr. DELACRUZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am Joe DeLaCruz, president of the Quinault Indian Nation. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I appreciate the opportunity to testify before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs regarding the progress of the self-governance demonstration project, provisions to consider for permanent self-governance legislation, and future Indian affairs policy issues for advancing the government-to-government relations between Indian tribes and the United States.

The Quinault Indian Nation and other participating tribes have worked extremely hard to advance this historic initiative since I provided testimony in mid-February 1988 on the authorization of the original title III of the self-governance demonstration project.

Mr. Lavell mentioned the miner's canary. In a way, I feel like the miner's canary because I think I am one of the only original chairmen left that came before that committee at that time. Selfgovernance has also taken its toll politically because of people who were afraid to move forward on a new initiative. We have moved a long way.

As the self-governance tribes have completed a 2-day conference on permanent legislation provisions, I want to request the opportunity to make a verbal presentation today and submit a more comprehensive written testimony for the hearing record.

Senator MCCAIN. Without objection, your prepared statement will appear in the record.

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